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Talented at arguing

37 replies

DoodleDonnell · 29/12/2024 02:45

My husband and I had an argument about lies he’s been telling me recently. One of them was pretty big and one was tiny… but that’s what has annoyed me. He can’t even be honest lately about the small stuff. Neither of which he had to lie about.

I have huge issues with people in general because of stuff done to me in the past. He knows this and, cheesy as it is, we are very close usually. We rarely row - certainly not significantly- and things are pretty plain sailing.

I don’t want to share what he lied about. The point is that I’m upset that he wasn’t just simply honest with me. So last night we had an argument - a major one. I know this is bad, please don’t judge, but I recorded it without him knowing. I know why I did this. It’s because:

A) he can appear so confident about what he said / didn’t say that I second guess myself. I sensed that he would say stuff which he would deny then I look paranoid / confused
B) so I can listen again when calmer instead of being reactive
C) I always feel I need proof to protect myself. By protect myself I don’t mean physically or anything - just that I feel people see me as the bad guy or a bad person so I wanted proof that it wasn’t me / just me

In our argument he said, “Oh I forgot how talented you are at arguing”. I said how hurtful and unnecessary that was. It has really hurt me. Talented at arguing?! Who says that? I actually hate arguing… I swear I was a tortoise in a previous life because I hide away. I hide from confrontation. I don’t socialise. That’s how much I hate any drama or negativity. I don’t ever want to mix with people because I don’t even want to risk arguing or drama or hassle.

So I was upset. About an hour / 30 mins later he says, “I never said you were talented at arguing”. Yes he did. He still doesn’t know he’s recorded. He’s so confident but I listened to it again and he most definitely did say it. He also said some other quite unpleasant things such as, “I am not being unkind if I’m telling you a statement. If something is a statement, it isn’t unkind”. So I said, “if I said ‘you’re a bastard’ that would be a statement but also unkind so that’s not true”. My other issue is that other people are allowed to be upset and offended about what life throws at them but I’m not allowed to be upset. I have to take other people’s comments, swallow them down and say nothing. For the first time, I have put a boundary in place about how I’m treated and now this happens.

In the end, I asked him to leave me alone. I stayed in our room and he stayed downstairs. I asked that he slept on the sofa which he did. I sobbed. More than I’ve cried in years. I cried so hard I felt like all my tears that I had ever cried were being cried all over again.

He’s my best friend, I just cannot believe he said I am talented at arguing…. It’s hurt me a lot.

He was out all day at work today and when he came back we watched tv. He spoke to me normally, I have short answers. I’m not doing that to be dramatic. I’m doing it because of what he said last night.

I’m struggling a lot atm. He knows that. Life is throwing me sour lemons from all angles atm. His comment has significantly hurt me. I feel very disconnected atm from everyone and everything and now this.

What’s worse is that this has gone the way I feared

  1. He said something that he now denies. In the past, I’d doubt myself but this time I have a recording
  2. He spoke to me normally so now my feelings are discarded

I really think I was a tortoise previously. I appreciate the irony of posting on here but I have had enough. I just want to go and hide in a cave somewhere (not literally) but be left alone. I’ve always said that if people can’t ‘not’ hurt me can they just leave me alone. But he is starting to say some pretty unpleasant things.

How would you feel if someone said you’re talented at arguing when they know it’s your number 1 hate to argue. He knows I don’t ever argue with anyone - if someone tries to start an argument I block them and stop all communication, hiding away and avoiding it. It’s upset me so much I now can’t sleep

OP posts:
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RedHelenB · 29/12/2024 04:59

Couples argue. People tell lies.You're making a mountain out of a molehill just from what you have written.

DoodleDonnell · 29/12/2024 04:58

Ladyj84 · 29/12/2024 04:56

If you honestly think this is a good thing in your marr you have very odd ideas of a good marriage. Even arguing often or not often and saying the things yous are saying would never happen in ours. If you have true friendship,love,respect yes you will have the odd argument over bizarre things but you have no lies or horrid words and it blows over in 5 minutes

Well no, this isn’t my idea what happens in a good marriage

that’s why I’m not asleep despite feeling shattered

thing is, how do you move forward from here

OP posts:
Playgroundincident · 29/12/2024 04:58

People say things in the heat of an argument that they forget they've said because they phrased it wrong or didn't mean it. Maybe it's his recollection.

DoodleDonnell · 29/12/2024 04:56

Garlicwest · 29/12/2024 04:55

You replied on the other thread at 04:25 🤔 I was all on your side until just now, but I'm as opposed to being gaslit as you claim to be.

Exactly 4.25am 🥱

OP posts:
Ladyj84 · 29/12/2024 04:56

If you honestly think this is a good thing in your marr you have very odd ideas of a good marriage. Even arguing often or not often and saying the things yous are saying would never happen in ours. If you have true friendship,love,respect yes you will have the odd argument over bizarre things but you have no lies or horrid words and it blows over in 5 minutes

Garlicwest · 29/12/2024 04:55

DoodleDonnell · 29/12/2024 04:51

it was an accident. I did one then worried I had put it in the wrong place so I thought I had deleted it and copied it somewhere else

it’s just a mistake

tbh I hadn’t even noticed until you pointed it out!

You replied on the other thread at 04:25 🤔 I was all on your side until just now, but I'm as opposed to being gaslit as you claim to be.

DoodleDonnell · 29/12/2024 04:54

gillefc82 · 29/12/2024 04:46

This is an interesting one. I come from a family that will rarely have explosive arguments when we do fall out. We also enjoy having reasonable, calm and respectful discussions /debates, particularly where there are opposing views on a particular subject. So for me, your DH’s comment would be a compliment!

My DH is the total opposite and it has caused some clashes in the past between us two, as well as with him and my family. He is naturally more emotional and fiery than I am and often when he gets heightened is unable to order his thoughts and articulate them clearly. So he won’t spend ages exchanging barbs back and forth arguing as he feels I can just run rings around him during an argument as I keep a cooler head and think more quickly on my feet when constructing and delivering my points. Could your DH feel the same when having a disagreement with you?

I would be concerned by him trying to rewrite the events after the fact. That sounds rather manipulative. Does he only behave this way when you are arguing or are there other situations/scenarios where he will try to convince you of an alternate set of events to suit him?

I would say the latter of your suggestions - to alternate a set of events to suit him but tbh I don’t know what to think anymore

OP posts:
DoodleDonnell · 29/12/2024 04:52

Oh I’ve just seen you said report for deletion

i think I already have but assumed it was instant

cripes I feel incredibly told off now 😂

please bear in mind the time of day / night and accidents do happen

OP posts:
DoodleDonnell · 29/12/2024 04:51

it was an accident. I did one then worried I had put it in the wrong place so I thought I had deleted it and copied it somewhere else

it’s just a mistake

tbh I hadn’t even noticed until you pointed it out!

OP posts:
gillefc82 · 29/12/2024 04:46

This is an interesting one. I come from a family that will rarely have explosive arguments when we do fall out. We also enjoy having reasonable, calm and respectful discussions /debates, particularly where there are opposing views on a particular subject. So for me, your DH’s comment would be a compliment!

My DH is the total opposite and it has caused some clashes in the past between us two, as well as with him and my family. He is naturally more emotional and fiery than I am and often when he gets heightened is unable to order his thoughts and articulate them clearly. So he won’t spend ages exchanging barbs back and forth arguing as he feels I can just run rings around him during an argument as I keep a cooler head and think more quickly on my feet when constructing and delivering my points. Could your DH feel the same when having a disagreement with you?

I would be concerned by him trying to rewrite the events after the fact. That sounds rather manipulative. Does he only behave this way when you are arguing or are there other situations/scenarios where he will try to convince you of an alternate set of events to suit him?

DoodleDonnell · 29/12/2024 04:29

No not me but maybe there is something in the air causing people to lie

I have read bits but it’s rather long and I don’t have the energy to read it all at this time

thank you though for forwarding it to me

OP posts:
ThisIsSockward · 29/12/2024 04:22

I don't know your partner, but speaking for myself, I probably do contradict myself in the heat of an argument. I might not remember saying something, or I might either say something I don't really mean (because I can admittedly be vicious in the moment) or express myself poorly (because being furious, hurt, overwhelmed, etc can make it difficult to think straight, much less put my thoughts and feelings into succinct and accurate words). The longer an argument drags out, the less likely I am to correctly remember everything that's been said.

If you don't argue frequently and generally have a good relationship, I think you should be prepared to let this one go. Reiterate that even small, inconsequential lies are a big thing to you and you need to be able to count on him to never lie about anything. If he apologises and agrees he won't do it again, good; otherwise, you have bigger problems than him saying something hurtful in a heated argument.

LetsNCagain · 29/12/2024 04:21

What was the tiny lie that triggered the latest argument, op?

DoodleDonnell · 29/12/2024 04:20

it isn’t about winning points

it’s just… well like I said before… there have been times where I have thought, “he definitely said x, y, z” but he’s denied it with such confidence that I second guessed myself. This time I just thought if I record then I have proof should anything get said that’s denied. It just so happens that it did.

tbh he was so confident this time that even tho I was 99.9% sure he had said it I still had to reply the recording to myself for that confirmation

OP posts:
FloofyPaws · 29/12/2024 04:17

LetsNCagain · 29/12/2024 04:13

Then if her husband is so awful, she should leave him. Winning these tennis points won't make the marriage better.

If he’s not purposefully doing this then it can be fixed if he’s willing to, but if that’s the case it’s likely an ingrained defence mechanism so won’t be easy to undo. It is possible, however. On the other hand if he’s going it on purpose then that is abusive.

LetsNCagain · 29/12/2024 04:13

FloofyPaws · 29/12/2024 04:09

Op is distressed because she is being routinely gaslit. That makes you feel insane and doubt yourself and your perception of reality. It’s awful to go through, truly awful. I don’t blame her for recording him as it was the only way to prove to herself she isn’t losing her mind. However do not tell him you’ve done this, and don’t do it again. Just keep it to yourself that you know you’re not imagining things and use it to strengthen yourself. If he’s not purposefully doing this then it can be fixed if he’s willing to, but if that’s the case it’s likely an ingrained defence mechanism so won’t be easy to undo. It is possible, however. On the other hand if he’s going it on purpose then that is abusive.

Then if her husband is so awful, she should leave him. Winning these tennis points won't make the marriage better.

PsychoHotSauce · 29/12/2024 04:12

Cant believe the responses berating you for recording him. It has been a fantastic tool for you to finally realise that his gaslighting is real and you are NOT crazy. I'm so glad you've finally got that validation OP.

LetsNCagain · 29/12/2024 04:11

Well, what I mean is, you have said repeatedly that you hide from confrontation, you hate drama.

But it seems as if the arguments have been started by you generally.

What was the small lie? There's a concurrent thread about an op catching her dp out in a lie about a birthday card. She also was requiring "proof" of the lie. Many comments were saying that her behaviour was abusive.

I think it is abusive to record an argument just to catch someone out, tbh. It isn't tortoise-like at all. It isn't the behaviour of someone who hates drama or confrontation

Garlicwest · 29/12/2024 04:09

LetsNCagain · 29/12/2024 03:58

Op, you're not a tortoise, it's oddly self indulgent to keel saying so, as if you've got no agency in starting these arguments.

But you do seem to need to win/be right. So I see his point about the talented arguing.

What does it matter if he contradicted himself halfway through an argument? Where's the gain in winning that point. You're not playing tennis! You (both of you) are destroying your marriage. Maybe it's already destroyed.

I don't understand how you get that OP "needs to win and be right"? She called him out about lying over something that mattered, he denied it and ran rings round her. She recorded the argument so she could see whether he was in fact bullshitting; it appears he was. That looks to me like he needs to win, even if it means increasing his wife's distress.

That said, @DoodleDonnell, I agree with PPs that there seems to be a lot of complicated stuff going on in your psyche, which would be best explored with a therapist rather than your husband. You deserve to feel reasonably confident in life and the people around you (not like a hard-shelled reptile!)

FloofyPaws · 29/12/2024 04:09

Op is distressed because she is being routinely gaslit. That makes you feel insane and doubt yourself and your perception of reality. It’s awful to go through, truly awful. I don’t blame her for recording him as it was the only way to prove to herself she isn’t losing her mind. However do not tell him you’ve done this, and don’t do it again. Just keep it to yourself that you know you’re not imagining things and use it to strengthen yourself. If he’s not purposefully doing this then it can be fixed if he’s willing to, but if that’s the case it’s likely an ingrained defence mechanism so won’t be easy to undo. It is possible, however. On the other hand if he’s going it on purpose then that is abusive.

DoodleDonnell · 29/12/2024 04:05

LetsNCagain · 29/12/2024 03:58

Op, you're not a tortoise, it's oddly self indulgent to keel saying so, as if you've got no agency in starting these arguments.

But you do seem to need to win/be right. So I see his point about the talented arguing.

What does it matter if he contradicted himself halfway through an argument? Where's the gain in winning that point. You're not playing tennis! You (both of you) are destroying your marriage. Maybe it's already destroyed.

The tortoise analogy was to symbolise how I withdraw and become an introvert when I feel hurt or threatened etc

Sorry, I thought that was clear

it wasn’t in a self indulgent way of saying ‘I’m not responsible for anything’

I am not actually sure how a tortoise analogy can be self indulgent 😂

OP posts:
LetsNCagain · 29/12/2024 03:58

Op, you're not a tortoise, it's oddly self indulgent to keel saying so, as if you've got no agency in starting these arguments.

But you do seem to need to win/be right. So I see his point about the talented arguing.

What does it matter if he contradicted himself halfway through an argument? Where's the gain in winning that point. You're not playing tennis! You (both of you) are destroying your marriage. Maybe it's already destroyed.

VoltaireMittyDream · 29/12/2024 03:47

I couldn’t live with someone who secretly recorded me. Jesus. Just end it.

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