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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be absolutely devastated by this?

370 replies

Haveyouseenthischicken · 16/11/2024 00:16

Posting here for traffic and because I am desperate for someone to talk me down off the ledge!

We own a flat in an expensive part of England. We paid £275k for it back in 2020, it came with a £1900 annual management fee. We thought ah, not so bad, it’s a city centre flat in a new development. In 4 years it’s gone up to £3600. The services received are crap. Over £50k for ‘gardeners’ who come once a year to mow the communal lawn. Cleaners who clock in on the sheet then leave 10 minutes later having done nothing. A scummy company basically, con artists and of course they’re totally unregulated.

We were unluckily caught up in the cladding scandal, and the whole saga of having this rectified took nearly 4 years in total. We moved out over 2 years ago and relocated for career changes, and have been living in a tiny 1 bedroom flat ever since. We couldn’t sell due to the lack of fire safety so have had to rent. We got the fire safety certificate and thought great, now we can sell our flat and move on with our lives! Now we can start trying for a baby (I’m 31, time isn’t on my side).

The flat has been on the market for 6 weeks and not a single viewing or enquiry. We’ve already priced it 25k below market value. Our agent believes it’s the high service charge putting people off.

After 2 years of hell waiting for the certificate and constant pushbacks by the housing developer for non existent reasons, we’ve today been told that our 2025 service charge will be between £7-9k PER FLAT to cover the cost of a new building safety report for all buildings over 18m high. There’s no guarantee this is a one off payment either. If people don’t want to buy with a £3600 service charge, they aren’t going to touch a flat with a £7-9k service charge.

I am absolutely devastated and have been crying since we found out. We thought this hell was over. Our lives have been stalled for over 2 years already. We can’t afford this charge. We are looking at a potential £700+ addition on top of our mortgage. We have tenants in at the moment but their rent only covers the mortgage and the service charge. We never have and never will make any profit off the flat, we rented it out of desperation and because we needed to relocate.

We are now looking at selling it at auction with a reserve price of £230k. We have an £80k deposit in this property and £180k left on the mortgage, so we would be selling at a major loss but at this point it seems the best option. We’ve even stooped to contacting those house buying companies.

I know it sounds dramatic but it genuinely feels like our life is over. We are just normal people with normal salaries. This will financially ruin us 😭

OP posts:
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7
Snapandfart24 · 18/11/2024 10:02

I'm sorry you are going through this, OP. How awful. All your hopes and your finances - equally painful - hauled over coals and slowly drained, it's terrible and you have my full sympathy.

I'd just like to know the reasons that the harsh twats who have decided you ABU are basing it on?
Having less themselves and wanting to remind you that there are people homeless, etc. I would think. Ridiculous. What help is that?! Someone will be along to say they want to swap problems if you wait long enough.

You are definitely not being unreasonable, and I really hope you find a solution that works and isn't too devastating. 💐

ElaborateCushion · 18/11/2024 10:29

Haveyouseenthischicken · 16/11/2024 11:05

Yes they are HML Management Company!

Hmmm... I had a feeling it would be someone I knew!

HML are an amalgamation of lots of other property management companies that have been bought out by the HML group. As a result, some are better than others. HML have themselves now been bought out by a bigger company and I have seen a deterioration in the accounting records of even the better agents.

It seems to be a case of the originally poor offices are still rubbish and the good ones are somehow being dragged down to their levels.

That said, there are a lot of challenges in the industry as a whole at the moment. With the amount of development and blocks of flats being built, there is a tonne of work for managing agents to do, but their ability to recruit and/or train decent quality staff is a massive issue industry wide.

I know you're hopefully going to get rid of it at auction, but if you can't, definitely keep exploring the RTM angle, but definitely also consider following it up from a perspective of whether the costs are reasonable.

ElaborateCushion · 18/11/2024 10:43

schoolmum11 · 16/11/2024 11:06

@Jaehee hi - are you in Canary Wharf by any chance? In a similar position!!

Ballymore??

Grammarnut · 18/11/2024 12:17

I feel for you. Companies like this are taking the piss.

Biddie191 · 18/11/2024 12:47

That's absolutely shocking, OP, I really hope you get a resolution to this.
Absolutely criminal - I can't believe it's so unregulated (well, I can, I just don't want to believe it).

Mrsgreen100 · 18/11/2024 13:29

I would write to all the owners and get together with a joint action,
As a landlord myself, I have to justify any charges levied on my tenants.
power is in group of you , time consuming I know but with so much money at stake
I’d go for it

Soberinthecity · 18/11/2024 18:29

I’m so sorry this is happening to you. It sounds awful. I remember listening years ago to a program on radio 4 about how unethical management companies were. We had a non-existent “gutter cleaner” which was included in our ground rent. I couldn’t wait to leave there… is there anyway you can go public with this, to someone like Martin Lewis? Also write to Winifred Robinson @ You and Yours at BBC Radio 4 - they deal with all sorts of scams like this. I would definitely go public it’s daylight robbery. Sending you love.

Debsthegardener · 19/11/2024 07:01

OP - please feel free to message me if you’d like a virtual hand hold at any point.
i forgot to add to my previous post about my flat that there was a Japanese knotweed problem as well as unfavourable rent review clause in my lease and I still sold it despite the £30k extra in the service charge. I was very upfront from the start with the estate agent and sold to a foreign cash buyer. I don’t regret it for a second. Not a second.

Debsthegardener · 19/11/2024 07:02

And who the hell are the 7% who think YABU!!

Askingforafriendtoday · 19/11/2024 07:55

Wibblywobblybobbly · 16/11/2024 00:34

The government backed Leasehold Advisory Service will likely be more help than Shelter.

Yes. So sorry to hear of this outrageous situation @Haveyouseenthischicken Not sure whether anyone's mentioned this in advice already what about looking here for advice too https://www.housing-ombudsman.org.uk/

Housing Ombudsman Service

Explore the Housing Ombudsman's home page and find out how we are improving residents’ lives and landlords’ services through housing complaints.

https://www.housing-ombudsman.org.uk

Mum2ZAxPE · 19/11/2024 09:39

Have you thought about renting out your flat? x

Makingchocolatecake · 19/11/2024 10:12

Can't you just raise the rent to cover the mortgage and service charge and then it's not costing you anything?

What happens if you refuse to pay it?

ElaborateCushion · 19/11/2024 10:14

Makingchocolatecake · 19/11/2024 10:12

Can't you just raise the rent to cover the mortgage and service charge and then it's not costing you anything?

What happens if you refuse to pay it?

If you refuse to pay your service charge the freeholder can obtain a repossession order and take your flat away from you. They're then free to sell the leasehold again and use the funds to pay the outstanding service charges and pocket any extra for themselves.

MidnightMeltdown · 19/11/2024 11:03

That's insane! I can't believe that they are allowed to effectively double the cost of your service in the space of a year! There should be a restriction on how much they can increase the % in the same way that there would be for council tax.

I bought a house in 2020 and that service charge is getting close to the cost of my mortgage. I don't know how they expect people to pay that on top of a mortgage. Seems very exploitative.

Haveyouseenthischicken · 19/11/2024 12:41

Makingchocolatecake · 19/11/2024 10:12

Can't you just raise the rent to cover the mortgage and service charge and then it's not costing you anything?

What happens if you refuse to pay it?

The issue is no one would pay the rent that we would need to charge in order to cover both the mortgage and the service charge.

OP posts:
Kneebonefuture · 19/11/2024 12:48

Is that even legal?

I'm so sorry op, this would have me on the ledge too. I know it won't help, but please try to remember you're still better off than most other 31 year olds in the country.

Kneebonefuture · 19/11/2024 12:48

Mum2ZAxPE · 19/11/2024 09:39

Have you thought about renting out your flat? x

Lol what? They are already renting it out

GranPepper · 19/11/2024 12:56

Kneebonefuture · 19/11/2024 12:48

Is that even legal?

I'm so sorry op, this would have me on the ledge too. I know it won't help, but please try to remember you're still better off than most other 31 year olds in the country.

Still better off than most 31 year olds? I'm sure that will be a huge comfort to the OP. NOT. She isn't better off. Many 31 year olds still live in their parental home saving for their future with reduced/no rent to pay to the parents. This OP's financial circumstances have taken a big battering from a significantly increased service charge. I said it up thread but hope OP or others in the situation catch bbc Rip Off Britain, series 16, ep 4 which has a segment at start of programme on how someone in similar position got the charges reduced

Kneebonefuture · 19/11/2024 13:02

GranPepper · 19/11/2024 12:56

Still better off than most 31 year olds? I'm sure that will be a huge comfort to the OP. NOT. She isn't better off. Many 31 year olds still live in their parental home saving for their future with reduced/no rent to pay to the parents. This OP's financial circumstances have taken a big battering from a significantly increased service charge. I said it up thread but hope OP or others in the situation catch bbc Rip Off Britain, series 16, ep 4 which has a segment at start of programme on how someone in similar position got the charges reduced

Thanks for the sarcastic comment, was that just to make me feel shit? At least my comment was genuinely said out of concern for someone's misfortune and trying to be realistic. Youre comment wasn't needed.

This is really bad news and unfortunate. But you are still really lucky and need to hold onto that thought, you can't give up. I can't even believe its legal. Do you have to reveal the 7-9k increase to potential buyers?

Askingforafriendtoday · 19/11/2024 13:12

Kneebonefuture · 19/11/2024 13:02

Thanks for the sarcastic comment, was that just to make me feel shit? At least my comment was genuinely said out of concern for someone's misfortune and trying to be realistic. Youre comment wasn't needed.

This is really bad news and unfortunate. But you are still really lucky and need to hold onto that thought, you can't give up. I can't even believe its legal. Do you have to reveal the 7-9k increase to potential buyers?

Of course they do and potential buyers will easily discover that anyway!

Askingforafriendtoday · 19/11/2024 13:22

@Haveyouseenthischicken As well as @GranPepper excellent suggestion re BBC Rip Off and it may well be worth contacting BBC. Radio 4 You and Yours and Moneybox Live, both address leasehold unfairnesses and iniquities and can and do intervene successfully on consumers' behalf

Here's a link to a Moneybox Live prog from Jan this year but there are many items on leasehold in both programnes www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001yhz6?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

GranPepper · 19/11/2024 13:22

Kneebonefuture · 19/11/2024 13:02

Thanks for the sarcastic comment, was that just to make me feel shit? At least my comment was genuinely said out of concern for someone's misfortune and trying to be realistic. Youre comment wasn't needed.

This is really bad news and unfortunate. But you are still really lucky and need to hold onto that thought, you can't give up. I can't even believe its legal. Do you have to reveal the 7-9k increase to potential buyers?

My comment wasn't intended to be sarcastic. It was a reaction to your unfortunate one when OP is struggling with significant financial troubles, out of concern for the OP. To your question, yes the OP will have to disclose the service charges. There would be a disclosure document exchanged between seller and buyer Solicitors and you are required to be truthful on it

MidnightMeltdown · 19/11/2024 14:22

I suppose that even if you sell at 230k you will at least still get 50k back. You will lose 30k of your initial deposit, but it could be worse. At least you won't be in negative equity with debt. Buying property is a risk, and there's always the possibility that the value could go down (for a whole variety of reasons) as well as up.

There was another thread recently about how the building of 'affordable housing' in an area negatively affects the value of existing properties.

LilySLE · 19/11/2024 23:16

First off I’m really sorry to hear that you’re in this position. It’s truly dreadful.

There’s a lot of advice on this thread, but I hope that this helps to clarify some of it.

The Building Safety Act 2022 is a very new and complex piece of legislation. Professionals are still grappling with it. It’s virtually impossible for a lay person to navigate. The Act distinguishes between, on the one hand, costs payable to remediate EXISTING defects in buildings - for which the principle is that by and large tenants shouldn’t pay, and tenants receive certain protections (though the application of the rules can be complex) - and, on the other hand, FUTURE costs payable by what is known as the “Accountable Person” for the building to ensure that the building is duly registered with the Building Safety Regulator and that the Regulator has all the information to be able to monitor that the building STAYS safe going forwards. These costs CAN be recharged to tenants. The legal authority for this is s30D of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, which was inserted by section 112 of the Building Safety Act.

The requirement to apply for a building safety case report for a higher-risk building is part of the costs that can be charged for via the service charge. Because it is a new requirement, there is a lot of uncertainty around what the regulator will require, and often the regulator will come back and ask for more documentation. It is not a quick or straightforward process, and most Accountable Persons would hire professionals to assist them with this. Those professional fees can also be recharged to tenants.

That’s not to say that the normal protections that tenants have around their service charge do not also apply to these costs (eg the option to challenge in Tribunal etc) - I haven’t actually looked into this point, but let’s assume that they can. But there isn’t much precedent for how much it “should” cost to prepare a building safety case, because it’s such a new requirement and the regulator keeps moving the goalposts. So the Tribunal may not have much to go on.

Many people have advised going down the route of clubbing together to buy your freehold, or exercising the right to manage. Aside from the fact that it sounds like you want to be rid of this flat asap, rather than get more involved, I would really counsel caution before doing either of these things. The fact that your building is a “higher-risk building” for the purposes of the Building Safety Act impacts this decision considerably. The compliance requirements under the Act are extremely onerous. They are difficult for even commercial landlords with the benefit of expensive advisors to comply with. A tenant run body would have to engage external consultants in order to stand a hope of complying. It would be massively time consuming, and carries the risk of criminal penalties if you get it wrong. Those who have advocated exercising these rights probably are not in a higher-risk building.

As you can probably tell, I have some industry knowledge, but I promise you I’m not a property developer/investor/landlord/managing agent or anything like that!

Good luck

GranPepper · 19/11/2024 23:56

LilySLE · 19/11/2024 23:16

First off I’m really sorry to hear that you’re in this position. It’s truly dreadful.

There’s a lot of advice on this thread, but I hope that this helps to clarify some of it.

The Building Safety Act 2022 is a very new and complex piece of legislation. Professionals are still grappling with it. It’s virtually impossible for a lay person to navigate. The Act distinguishes between, on the one hand, costs payable to remediate EXISTING defects in buildings - for which the principle is that by and large tenants shouldn’t pay, and tenants receive certain protections (though the application of the rules can be complex) - and, on the other hand, FUTURE costs payable by what is known as the “Accountable Person” for the building to ensure that the building is duly registered with the Building Safety Regulator and that the Regulator has all the information to be able to monitor that the building STAYS safe going forwards. These costs CAN be recharged to tenants. The legal authority for this is s30D of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, which was inserted by section 112 of the Building Safety Act.

The requirement to apply for a building safety case report for a higher-risk building is part of the costs that can be charged for via the service charge. Because it is a new requirement, there is a lot of uncertainty around what the regulator will require, and often the regulator will come back and ask for more documentation. It is not a quick or straightforward process, and most Accountable Persons would hire professionals to assist them with this. Those professional fees can also be recharged to tenants.

That’s not to say that the normal protections that tenants have around their service charge do not also apply to these costs (eg the option to challenge in Tribunal etc) - I haven’t actually looked into this point, but let’s assume that they can. But there isn’t much precedent for how much it “should” cost to prepare a building safety case, because it’s such a new requirement and the regulator keeps moving the goalposts. So the Tribunal may not have much to go on.

Many people have advised going down the route of clubbing together to buy your freehold, or exercising the right to manage. Aside from the fact that it sounds like you want to be rid of this flat asap, rather than get more involved, I would really counsel caution before doing either of these things. The fact that your building is a “higher-risk building” for the purposes of the Building Safety Act impacts this decision considerably. The compliance requirements under the Act are extremely onerous. They are difficult for even commercial landlords with the benefit of expensive advisors to comply with. A tenant run body would have to engage external consultants in order to stand a hope of complying. It would be massively time consuming, and carries the risk of criminal penalties if you get it wrong. Those who have advocated exercising these rights probably are not in a higher-risk building.

As you can probably tell, I have some industry knowledge, but I promise you I’m not a property developer/investor/landlord/managing agent or anything like that!

Good luck

And in plain English?
Taking into account the OP is an owner not a landlord or tenant, from what I understand