Paula Vennels being questioned at the Post Office Inquiry, followed by others - thread 2

Thank you for the reminder @nauticant

Womble Bond Dickinson certainly have not come out well in the inquiry based on the emails and meeting notes we've seen so far.
But if you remember, we have already had a taster from a partner at WBD, Stephen Dilley.
If you dont have time to go back and watch his evidence, here is Nick Wallis summary of what happened. It is a very fair and accurate summary of Stephen Dilley was like at the inquiry.
https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/nothing-personal-mr-castleton-its-just-justice/

I have a horrible feeling it will be the same from Andrew Parsons.

The person I am interested in is Lord Grabiner KC, tomorrow - who was involved in the decision to recuse the Judge in the GLO.
Through some googling, and correct me if I'm wrong, he is a Lord because he is in the House of Lords, is that right?
Questions I have are:
How the hell did he get involved in the PO litigation?
Why did he get involved?
Is he going to blame Paula, the PO for lying to him?
How much responsibility is he going to take for his role in this shit show?

DanielGault · 07/06/2024 15:31

I don't think it would be in any way fair to punish their families tbh.

Surely one of the perils of a criminal conviction is that the family suffers, too? Is it not one of the things supposed to act as a deterrent? And what's so bad about cutting of neoptistic opportunities for them? Advancements they haven't merited, on the basis of family connections.

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/post-office-live-vennells-faces-questions-on-lawyer-integrity-and-pr-spin/5119805.article

Has anyone seen this weeks Private Eye - a good piece on the Road to Damascus moent for St Paula - "Why are you persecuting my people" and her "tissue of lies"

Just a little perspective:

This circus will wrap up in September at a cost to the taxpayer of around £200 million.

‘In October 2023, I announced our intention to provide funding of up to £150 million, plus any contingency that may be required, to support the Post Office fully participating in the Post Office Horizon it inquiry and to support the delivery of redress to postmasters.
Since then, those costs have increased and the Government have decided to provide access to contingency funding, and award a further £40 million to ensure Post Office can continue to deliver this important work. The Government remain determined to address the wrongs of the Horizon scandal.’

Contrast this with the criminal enquiry, surely of far more interest to any subpostmaster who has had to share a cell for months or years and slop out.

‘Criminal inquiry into Post Office scandal set to involve 80 detectives and cost £6.75m. A CRIMINAL inquiry into the Post Office scandal is set to involve 80 detectives and cost £6.75million. It will look into claims of perverting justice and perjury after 900 sub-postmasters were wrongly convicted.’

And from the post office website:

‘Post Office has identified a total of 700 convictions in cases it prosecuted between 1999 and 2015 in which Horizon computer evidence might have featured. We have contacted the majority, although there remain 25 people we are still unable to trace despite continuing strenuous efforts to do so. The Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) has also, separately, contacted people who had not yet responded to Post Office. Details can be found on the CCRC website here.
The total number of all overturned convictions as of 30 April 2024 is 103. This includes ten cases in which Post Office was not the prosecutor.
More than £43 million has been paid in compensation to date, including 41 full and final settlements.’

So 200 mio plus to be splurged on this public mea minima culpa in under 2 years, £43 mio to compensate the victims paid so far, and less than £7 mio to actually try to put the truly guilty in jail.

It kind of speaks for itself.

It's not for them to be punished. IDK how bad of a problem nepotism is in the UK, but if it's anything like Ireland, people with money/connections will wheedle their way into most things. Including jobs for the kids. It's just a general rich people thing. As old as time. But it doesn't really relate to this. (*Predicts Vennels progeny in the dock in 20 years time).

I don't want their families gone after. But the nepotism is off the scale with politicians and high level public servants. If it's a punishment not to have favourable treatment in appointment to high level jobs, then the vast majority of people are punished. They can do the jobs most people do, which contribute value to society, on the basis of their ability, be that chemistry or train driving or business, but not public service gravy train jobs. Those seriously need to be appointed like Caesar's Wife - immaculate record and absolutely not who you know.

I completely understand where you are coming from @Newbutoldfather .

The issue, in my view, is a British one. Unlike some other countries, we seem to have a barrier to holding our political, corporate (and dare I say it) upper society criminal responsible for their actions.

Someone far cleverer than me will probably be able to explain why this is.

Recently, after covid, I remember discussions about holding Boris Johnson, and others criminally responsible for the deaths of thousands,
One political commentator said we couldn't do that because then no-one would want to be Prime Minister.

I.think.thats a stupid reason.

We need to shift the balance.

Our position should very much be "Mr/Mrs X you have this responsible position. It comes with a lot of power and money. But remember, if you fuck it up, use it for illegal means etc we will hold you accountable"

Until we have a huge shift in our culture, all we have are Public Inquiries. Whilst they will.not resolve everything, this is what we have.
And we need to keep trying.

I don't think it would be in any way fair to punish their families tbh. Their bibs have been well dirtied already and they've not even done anything!

I would like to see a culture of transparency and accountability - particularly in terms of recruitment - come out of this. I would like the people who could have spoken up and didn't to suffer both public opprobrium and heavy financial penalties; reputational and financial bankruptcy. I would like their families to be both embarrassed by them and not to be able to work any connections - a hard cut off from public office for three generations. We need to get some decency into the management of public affairs.

@prh47bridge ,

Thanks for that.

I really hope these investigations and/or private prosecutions come to something but, as opposed to the U.S, we have a lamentable record in pursuing corporate/white collar crime, especially compared to the U.S.

We seem to prefer these long winded and expensive enquiries.

If I had perjured myself and got someone a prison term, what would happen to me when I was found out?

With, as far as I can see, only one exception, the people who have given evidence to the inquiry so far did not give evidence in court against subpostmasters, so have not perjured themselves. However, a significant proportion of them may be guilty of perverting the course of justice or conspiracy to do so. Anyone who has been given a self-incrimination warning is being investigated by the Met for possible criminal charges. Alan Bates has said that, if people aren't charged, he will raise funds to bring private criminal prosecutions.

@nauticant ,

Watched a fair chunk and read a lot on here, and elsewhere.

I think there have been a few insincere apologies, a few crocodile tears (mainly PV) and a few eyebrow raising moments, but no great ‘gotcha’ moments, as they have all been able to prepare in advance ably advised by expensive barristers (have they had to pay for those?).

It was the media that exposed this, not the enquiry.

Will this enhance the settlements? Let’s see. Do you think that PV et al will care for long when they are enjoying their very well funded retirement amongst their friends and supporters? I seriously doubt it.

While all that is true, it has woken the general public up to the behaviour.

Yes, it has, but next time we get told that we have to pay ridiculous salaries and huge bonuses, in order to get the 'Best people', how exactly are we going to challenge it?

None of the people we have seen of the PO management seem remotely the best.

And I would hazard a guess that if the management of say the privatised water companies were held up to scrutiny would find the same festering mess underneath.

While all that is true, it has woken the general public up to the behaviour. So people will be less trusting of the brand (rightfully so), and there will be more accountability. Of course it may slip again over time, but it's definitely shown them that they're not beyond public scrutiny at the very least.

@nauticant ,

Thank you for answering my point but I will have to respectfully disagree (It will be interesting to see what the sub postmasters think when it is over).

They don’t pull the covers away at all, but allow well resourced people to obfuscate and make themselves ever more remote from the wrongdoing.

And, at the end, no one is actually wiser. You get a several hundred page report , which is read by an handful, and pompous people intone that ‘lessons have been learned’. Except they haven’t, and the Post Office and Royal Mail continue to exist (maybe with new ownership) and, after a couple of unpleasant days, the ex senior execs get back to planning luxurious summer hols using the bonuses that they took from persecuting subpostmasters.

And the cost? If the government have a few hundred million or more to spare, why not directly compensate the victims in a timely manner, before they are too old to enjoy it?

I honestly think these enquiries are a really expensive way of keeping wealthy and powerful people out of the clinker, and deferring expensive compensation payments to the next government.

What are they actually designed to do? If I had perjured myself and got someone a prison term, what would happen to me when I was found out? I wouldn’t be summoned to a (relatively) polite chat, I would have a police interview under caution and then, if prosecuted and found guilty, jailed.

Apparently these enquiries (Covid, Post Office, Hillsborough, contaminated blood-just the ones I can remember) have cost the exchequer £130 billion (and obviously enriched the legal and accounting profession). And what have been the results? Any meaningful prison sentences? Any large fines or bonuses repaid? Ah yes, some people have given up their MBEs and OBEs…..

It really is a total disgrace and will make the real victims believe that justice is only visited upon the plebs….

Next week is going to be full on.

In particular Lord Grabiner KC and Andrew Parsins from Bond Dickinson.

We have already seen so many poor behaviours from them, in emails, so hearing from them directly is going to be very interesting
Will they take the same approach as their colleague Stephen Dilley, and be patronising, arrogant and (well basically) a dick head.
Or will they take responsibility for what they did?

I think the line of questioning will be on:
,,▪︎ the advice they gave to stop putting meetings in writing/or wrapping notes in 'legal and privileged'
..▪︎ non disclosure of Garerh Jenkins Witness statement
..▪︎ running up legal bill so that Alan Bates and Co couldn't afford the Group Litigaton
..▪︎ the decision to make an application to recuse the Judge from the Group Litigation.

Thanks!