Pronouns at work

It's entirely different. She's not writing it in her work email signature!

They are also talking about us addressing any new colleages with gender neutral pronouns until we know for definite how they wish to be addressed.

This one at least is a no-brainer. I would suggest using "you".

Surely if someone puts Mrs or Mr or Miss or Ms that tells you their gender.

Don't need she/her, he/him!

What difference does it make whether Ashley is a man or woman if you're emailing them?

@NoMoreFalafelsForYou You are not answering. WTF does it mean to add WOMANNESS to your username/signature

OMG, what are you not getting lol
The poster I was replying to was called absolutefemale. Absolutefemale was saying about how they thought less of people using pronouns it was ridiculous, I was just saying names/people who feel the need to state their absolute femaleness/womanness can come across as ridiculous too. It's no different.

@Wednesday6 why does it matter if they’re a man or a woman?

Maybe just say that forcing you to publicly disclose your pronouns goes against your beliefs, which are protected under the Equality Act 2010 and therefore forcing you to do so would constitute discrimination.

I like pronounce at my work it's a massive global company and I often struggle to tell via email if I'm talking to a man or a woman! I made a mistake thinking Ashley was a man and it was a woman and many more mistakes with colleagues from China and India.

'As a Christian I have gender critical beliefs'.

If they come for you they come for your religion and then, they're fucked.

If that is the case, what in the everloving FUCK is wrong with putting MRS in your name if you're married?!

What fresh hell is this? This would only come from (jealous) single females.

(I said the JEALOUS ones, not all ones.)

@NoMoreFalafelsForYou You are not answering. WTF does it mean to add WOMANNESS to your username/signature?!

How does one add their womanness to status in their names?
The poster I was replying to who thinks less of people who use pronouns, sees them as ridiculous.
I was just saying it can also be seen as ridiculous to state your absolute womanness in your username, how is that any different? You're stating your identity and "proper womanning"

I always think of people who put their pronouns in their email signature as prize pricks (in the same way as those who add their qualifications).

My area manager has both, it runs into 3 lines 🙄

@SheFliesLikeABirdInTheSky
Do you not read all posts? This was my original one, where I said I didn't think it was right if they were forcing people to use them.
You should never be forced to, it should be personal choice.

I personally would use them in my emails, but you're right in that you shouldn't be forced to if that's what they're doing

Is womaness being Mrs? Maybe assuming has children?

I quite like it when kids call me Sir (and I'm Mrs not Miss but will answer to pretty much any name / noise that isn't rude) as I think it shows they unconsciously do respect me the same as male teachers, who incidentally are proportionally far more likely to be slt which does not appear to be correlated to their skill levels.

It's ridiculous. Our company haven't done it...yet. When I see it I immediately think wanker. Nobody is forced to do it as it's not allowed!

Did you not read the OP's posts? She said she is being threatened with disciplinary action if she does NOT use pronouns.

@NoMoreFalafelsForYou

I do on the other hand think a bit less of anyone who feels the need to state their womanness status in their names, that looks rather ridiculous.

Also what the fuck does THIS mean?! How does one add their womanness to status in their names?

Being outed as female is actually worse than being outed as the super special privileged because time after time studies and journalists have found using the same description but changing the name affects
Diagnosis of mh disorders
How much respect your emails get
How babies are treated when less than 1 yr old
Whether someone will complain / go above your head
Whether your email is considered rude
Etc.

But also it will reflect badly on the company as people will assume
All employees are trans and therefore reality deniers so what else do they not believe?
The organisation is forcing women to comply, not a good look.
All employees are allies, back to the reality point.
Many will see the email signature and feel insulted/ want to avoid using the service or product in future.

@AbsolutelyFemale

I always think less of someone if they have pronouns in their email signature. It makes them look rather ridiculous. So I'd be opposing it as well
See, it doesn't bother me..Each to their own. If you want to add them do, if you don't, then don't.
I do on the other hand think a bit less of anyone who feels the need to state their womanness status in their names, that looks rather ridiculous.

I don't want to be outed as a female in my workplace and I have refused to include pronouns in my email signature.

I was a bit miffed last week when I had emails from MoJ that include it in their actual email addresses that show up when you receive an email.

Threads like these are full of people saying they see no problem and others saying they don't want to.

I can see why some trans people like others to do this, and so being invited to by HR is a positive thing in my view.

I have several reasons for not doing this, linked to me choosing not to signpost my sex. I deliberately use a non gendered title and arriviste my name to a gender neutral one. I have done this for years to reduce risk of sex discrimination. I also have significant issues with sections of society undoing years of work to dismantle limiting a fad restrictive ideas about gender and gender conformity. I have major concerns about people thinking my stated pronouns signal that I want to be 'treated as and seen as a woman'. Anyone with such views can fuck right off. In the work place, we should be treated like employees and no gendered assumptions should be made.

I recognise that not everyone shares my views, which is fine. They can go ahead with their efforts to support trans people, it is commendable and I can see the draw of it. What I don't accept is (i) ignorance about the difference between sex and gender identity and how the concept of gender identity is regressive in terms of gender non conformity (ii) insistence that my position is fuelled by transphobia. I no longer feel cowed by fears that I will be called transphobic (iii) ignorance about the damage that calling anyone with gender critical beliefs a danger to trans people. Perpetuate this myth and misunderstanding is damaging to trans people as it unnecessarily fuels a climate of fear for them, when the only thing they have to face is people not viewing them as they wish to be view. Upsetting - probably, unsafe - no!

I think most of us are "non-binary" as we have so many different facets to our personalities that do not conform to traditional sex-based stereotypes. On that basis I would feel comfortable saying that I am exploring non-binary but do not want to commit to pronouns at the moment. They can't tell you off for that if you are worried about consequences for your job security.

But much the best response would be to explain why legally this is not allowed and is discriminatory. You can also say that you don't feel comfortable sharing this level of sensitive personal information in an email. It's also contrary to the GDPR as well as the Equality Act 2010.

Sounds great. Inclusive. I can't see the problem.

Inclusive of whom, exactly? Certainly not of women who don't want to emphasise their sex in work correspondence for very good reasons. Nor of trans people who haven't yet decided that they want to identify as such in a work context.

OP, Viewfromahouse above has set out the legal reason to quote to your employers if you want to. Or just don't do it and see if they actually take any action because if they do they are in the wrong legally.

Sorry I am a bit clueless/not down with the kids

Does that mean @mrsclaus1984 that if your name is Susan Harris, that they want you to put Susan Harris (she/her.) Or Mrs Susan Harris (she/her?) Or Susan Harris CIS female (she/her?)

I'm so confused.

I don't think that really works as an argument - the issue with pronouns is that we do need them to refer to each other. We don't need to go around saying "hey, you, pregnant person, 40 year old, etc" So there is a reason why some people might want to use them. (For those with gender neutral names who you meet via email it would actually be very useful). The issue is that if your name is well-known as a woman's name it's purely performative and therefore a political statement of allyship & beliefs which shouldn't be forced on people.