To draw your attention to Mr Bates vs The Post Office

I will add, the Paula thing is odd.

she got 400 k pay off and a cbe for services to the post office, and they are refusing to withdraw it.

that’s a thank you and pay off if ever I saw it, yes Paula was responsible . Yes, the buck stopped with her, but Paula was accountable to someone. That someone was the single shareholder, the government,

the post office, Paula, reported to the parliamentary under Secretary of State. Who was responsible for postal affairs as part of their office. He/she was her boss.

i do wonder if this went much deeper into the government than is being shown, and Paula got a thank you for taking the fall.

I agree, the fact no one’s morals kicked in, that inherent right from wrong , when they were aware of how bad this was. Just how evily people were being treated. But then I guess there was a lot of fear.

The federation guy who saw they had remote access, getting his numbers changed to owe 44k, his wife convicted. It seems many resigned, but said nothing, and I’d sssume they were scared.

but people like Paula and Angela? The ones who stayed in and made it happen. Thr lawyers, the staff , the people changing the numbers, all doing it, knowing. Knowing people were being robbed, bankrupted, convicted, but doing it anyway.

And Paula , a prior Anglian minister too, taking her exit money, her cbe, still, still not willing to explain how it got so bad on her watch, still not willing to accept any personal responsibility for the evil.

and it was evil. This wasn’t just people being fired. Loosing their jobs. This was people being falsely convicted so they could use proceeds of crime legislation to seize their assets, bankrupt them. People were being sent to jail. Families broken up. Homeless. People committing suicide.

and Still these people kept going after more and more people for the money.

Indeed - this should be a good enough answer to all those ridiculous "if you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to fear" wonks who pop up any time government proposes more draconian measures. I notice those types are conspicuous by their absence from this thread.

I suppose at the start there must have been some “holy shit” moments - when the PO realised the extent. But the right thing to do would be a company investigation and a hands up - it would have cost millions of course. So it’s easier flatly to deny. But the bit I can’t fathom - these people knew the misery being caused - that people were suicidal/desperate/going to jail. At that point; moral kick in.

any no whistle blowers? At some point, a tonne of in house lawyers and external counsel knew there was no case. Call centre staff at Fujitsu must have known. Whistleblowing legislation is meant to prevent this stuff but it’s all toothless

but with the advent of AI this is a chilling reminder to us all about “computer says no”

I was aware of this, but am astounded again at how shocking it was.

I also can’t fathom why when it started to become obvious the system was a problem they continued to go after their own staff, instead of carrying out a proper full investigation and halting all prosecutions. It was obvious it was going to come out. They did it for the money, yes, but they just kept digging, hoping they would get away with it.

they went after the sub post masters for a criminal conviction (, fraud, theft or falsifying records), so that when they got a conviction (which all were gained without any evidence of criminal intent), they could then use the proceeds of crime legislation to take the submasters personal assets to pay back monies owed and costs , so they took their homes, everything, bankrupting so many.

paula presided over that. Instead of seeing something was wrong and attempting to fix it, and she was a former Anglian vicar, she doubled down on it. Lying to the government and ministers. Lying to the public, and convicting innocents for money. It became a real scandal under her tenure. Either that was complete incompetence or a deliberate act. There is no other option.

and she walked away with 400k pay out and got a cbe for her services to the post office. Which in itself is utterly scandalous.

Excellent point.

Also, most postmasters are not Post Office staff. They are self-employed providing services to Post Office.

Also "why oh why didn't the CEO, whose job it was to protect her staff, call a halt on the programme? I cannot get my head round this at all.*
It isn't a CEOs job to protect staff, sadly.

By the time Paula Vennells was in charge, Horizon had been in use for a number of years. Going back to the old paper system wasn't really an option. In any case, she and other senior managers were in denial about the problems with Horizon. They were burying their heads in the sand.

I've seen a lot of senior people do this kind of thing because they hope (rightly in her case) that by the time the shit really hits the fan they will be long gone and in another high paying role or with a massive pension (and an honour).

They know there is an issue but they do just enough to ensure it won't become big enough to hurt them during their tenure.

If she had told them to go back to paper she'd have been ridiculed and people would (rightly) have asked how she allowed the system to go live at all.

As I understand it the Fujitsu deal was a PPI so they would do anything to make sure it kept rolling. If some evidence is to be believed, they were trying to patch up crap data as they went along, rather than stop and fix the issues first.

Quite a few posters have mentioned good IT practises and that's to be applauded - but in my 30+ years in IT I would have to say that none of this is a surprise to me - organisations are often trying to do things on the cheap with the wrong people and anyone who questions stuff is fired or moved to a different project.

Trying to bring ourselves to watch it. Suspect it’s going to make us angry.

This breaks my heart.

Toll not tole

What I don't understand is why did the PO want to cover up the issue? When it became obvious there was a problem with the IT system, why did Paula not
a)not send out an email telling the post masters/ mistress to stop using the system and go back to paper based until Fujitsu had sorted it.
b) contact Fujitsu and tell them there was clearly an issue and they would no longer use the machines until it was sorted.

Why cover up? I mean really who would have cared if the IT was screwed, it wouldn't have been a scandal. Everyone knows new systems having teething problems.

So was it Paula's ego that stopped her from investing properly, was she so blinded by her power she refused to accept the issue, or was she being leaned on by someone?

She has blood on her hands, how dare she profess to be a woman of God when she's responsible for so much needless suffering. She needs to be accountable and so does her sidekick.

If you read what happened in a book, you'd never believe it because of all the holes in the plot. There were so many obvious problems I just don't understand how she ignored them, or why the PO was so heavy handed in its approach. It's not even the case of 'hindsight' the issues were obvious from the calls to the helpline, so why oh why didn't the CEO, whose job it was to protect her staff, call a halt on the programme? I cannot get my head round this at all.

It's worth watching the documentary on ITVX. I hope the government now does the right thing by all those who suffered and families who have lost loved ones are properly compensated, although it will never bring back their loved one, and it will never repair the terrible tole it's taken on those still living with their trauma of lives being turned upside down, they all deserve a good retirement now, with no financial worries.

I agree jSmill. Why are the suicides - for example - not corporate manslaughter?

This was my support mistress. She's a lovely lady.

I'd say maybe not. It includes a violent armed robbery, a suicide and an attempted suicide. Why not watch it yourself first, and then decide. Every adult should watch it, that's for sure.

My local post mistress was a victim of this. She was sent to prison pregnant with her second child. It was horrendous. She is a lovely lady and the community supported her.

Yes, my husband was a sub postmaster in 2002. He said the most the system was out by for him was £50 but frequently small amounts so it just reduced the profit for him. He said it was anything but a computer as it didn't compute.

I signed the petition although I think removing honours is just a symbolic gesture and those in charge at the time of this scandal should be properly investigated and held to account.

I think the biggest thing for me is that we have I stop - now - the ability of the Post Office to be able to criminally investigate. That is nonsensical. All the usual checks and balances flew away with catastrophic consequences. How far would this have gone had prosecutions required actual evidence of loss, rather than the say so of Horizon?

in case you are interested: the cabinet office publish the details of who sits on the honours committees (see link below ) but don’t tell you who has nominated an individual for an award.

Anyone can nominate someone for an honour but obviously you have to be able to build a case that meets the approval of the honours committee and the nominated person has to pass due diligence.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/honours-committees#main-committee

It would be interesting to know who nominated Paula Vennells but I don't think we’ll ever be told. Nor do I think we will find out how she passed due diligence when , at the time the award was given (2019) , the failings were already well known. I think the fact that she was a non executive director at the Cabinet Office will have helped!

Obviously my sympathies are primarily with the victims of this awful scandal but I also think that people like her being granted awards undermines the system for those who genuinely deserve honours. The Honours system needs to change : much more transparency and accountability is needed. I used to think it didn’t matter, was mostly nonsense, but I’ve seen that it does. Many of the senior awards put people in positions of authority : allow them to decide on legislation and help them get plum jobs!

And still very silent about Adam Crozier.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12918565/amp/itv-viewers-mr-bates-vs-post-office-drama-ex-royal-mail-chief-adam-crozier.html

Thank you, signed.

God so depressing. How an intelligent and even religious woman would destroy innocent hard working people if it suited her salary and her agenda…

Would be harder for them to get away with now as the SPM could have found each other more easily online.