To draw your attention to Mr Bates vs The Post Office

It’s shocking. People lost everything, I mean literally everything ( including freedom ) for something that wasn’t their fault.

Im aware of the case but going to watch the program on catch up later.

Fujitsu have been sued before, in the civil courts under contract law - a long running case about a system they implemented for the NHS. Which they won, basically, because their systems are only as good as the instructions they are given by the client (the government/NHS). That was a hugely complicated system. The PO one, which is effectively a double entry accounting system, you would think would be relatively straightforward. However, even if the system was rubbish because the PO's instructions were rubbish, that's a contract law/ civil case between government/PO and Fujitsu. I agree that politically the PO might not want to go there, and fingers have been burned in previous cases, with tax payers footing the legal bill.

However, what is being investigated by the Met is criminal charges against Fujitsu employees who lied on the witness stand during criminal prosecutions, under instruction from their superiors; and I think they should be looking at a possible criminal conspiracy between the PO and Fujitsu to defraud SPOs of their money through malicious and knowingly unfounded prosecutions backed up by false evidence from Fujitsu. The case of the lovely lady Jo in the dramatisation suggested that the PO had zero evidence against her when they were prosecuting her, yet they still pursued her to a guilty plea. That will not be an isolated incident. However, the dramatisation also suggested PO/Fujitsu were destroying evidence.

I sincerely hope that the Met police is free from political interference and investigate this thoroughly, and that prosecutions will happen. Certainly, and in an election year, the public are firmly on the side of the SPOs and want some justice in the criminal courts, so if political pressure does influence the Met, hopefully it will be on the side of the little people for a change. (Ha, ha, ha, we should all remain cynical)

Someone on Another Talkboard has just linked to this case. Postmaster lost his home family and reputation after being convicted of theft. Couldn't explain how there were discrepancies. Died unnoticed. There must be dozens of cases where it goes into the realms of local gossip

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/devon-postmaster-previously-jailed-fraud-4731169

Mentions the auditors picking up on the supposed discrepancy. Were they just assuming the Horizon system was infallible?

All of those sorts of matters would be raised by defence counsel and forensic accounting experts. The problem is, these sub post masters didn't have any representation. They were barred from having legal representation during the interview process conducted by the PO when they were being investigated. They were allowed to bring a friend, but that friend had to stay silent. They were locked out of their post offices without warning and prevented from accessing their own records held there. They had no financial means to hire clever lawyers to work through the logic/illogic of the case. This was not a case of electronic transfers being traceable out of the PO to a private bank account - they were being accused of taking cash. The computer said they had taken it, so who is going to question the holy computer? This was happening at a time when very few lay people understood computer systems in order to question the veracity of whether that system was working properly - believe me, your average defence barrister would be clueless. Many of these poor people just agreed to plead guilty to false accounting in exchange for the theft charges being dropped, in order to make the thing go away by taking a light sentence and getting on with their lives.

If you assume that the vast majority of subpostmasters were honest people, which they probably were, because the Post Office vetting procedure was rigorous, errors in favour of the SPO would have shown up and been reported to the PO, who would have looked into it and put it right. They had no incentive to do the reverse because the contract the PO had imposed on the subpostmasters said they were responsible for all losses no matter where they came from.

Yes this did happen according to the evidence in one of the podcasts linked above. One of the problems, though, was that sometimes the wrong sub post master was credited. Whether those sub post masters were aware that they were being credited unfairly, or whether they thought that Horizon must have detected a mistake on their part, remains unknown.

*20 years I meant x

It may have been touched on but I was thinking while watching the harrowing episodes surely if they were guilty of stealing money, this money would show up somewhere. Their bank accounts? A different account? Lifestyle changes? Big purchases etc. There would have been a money trail somewhere but obviously there isn't as they didn't take any money. My heart breaks for them all. 20 of Alan Bates life and the lives of all the others seeking justice. And to those that took their own lives, nothing will ever make that better. It's surely a criminal case now against those in charge at the PO.

I’m curious about if there were any errors the other way. In favour of the sub post masters,

to explain, all we have seen is errors that resulted in deficits, and the subpost managers made responsible

but maybe the errors could have worked both ways. Where it said there was extra money, I’m curious with it only ever causing a deficit or being completely accurate , that it never had errors in the sub post masters favour. Not the ones who suffered the deficits obvs, but that some sub post offices found the system telling them they had more money and it was basically theirs

it seems odd when they were in their messing with it so much, that the faults were only a deficit. Or competent accurate, it never failed to record properly and resulted in an excess.

20 years on, after constant upgrades, on a system that has now been removed... Probably not.

I'm wondering if they are able to trace the actual line of code that might have been at fault

There'll be some individual scapegoats. Fujitsu's insurers will have to pay up something probably but there won't be any senior accountability. Fujitsu will be on the naughty step for a while and then it will all be forgotten. The Japanese have huge influence and leverage over the UK and Government. They are not worried.

Horizon developed by CLE and later Fujitsu must be held responsible for some of this - I'm worried the former PO CEO is sacked, loses her CBE and everyone else hides away and gets off with it. She only appeared on the scene in 2015 I think it was.

I can't see the rest of the Twitter thread on this as I'm not logged in, but some stuff here

https://x.com/flaminhaystacks/status/1743545499104244208?s=46&t=c1YpZJygPcF37enm3MVDKg

Thank you very much, @Shoppingfiend , that summary article by Computer Weekly is very good.

It has a good timeline and links to Computer Weekly's own articles as the story unfolded down the years.

Just to repeat the main link:
https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Post-Office-Horizon-scandal-explained-everything-you-need-to-know

The problem goes back to 1999 - so many must be embroiled in responsibility for this - call centre workers were told to lie to the post office postmasters that they were the only ones with this problem, where are these people ..........everyone is obviously keeping their head well down - or have signed a non disclosure statement.

Here is a good explanation of events
https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Post-Office-Horizon-scandal-explained-everything-you-need-to-know

They should additionally all have to pay heavy fines that can be used in part to compensate the subpostmasters. Although you can never compensate for loss of life with money.

Good. Anyone who knew what was going on and didn't blow the whistle on it has played a part in ruining innumerable lives and deserves to go to prison imo.

Sorry, should have added that there have been pieces in both the Telegraph and the Times about this, but they're paywalled.

Michael Keegan, husband of Tory minister Gillian Keegan was a senior executive at Fujitsu during part of this period and now is something or other in Whitehall doing techie stuff for the MOD.

@Jijithecat I know there's been a few questions on this thread re Horizon and Fujitsu. This episode of the podcast might answer some of those questions.
I think this programme opens the lid on how this all started. A toxic mix of poor system design, corporate secrecy, financial stress and political pressure at the very highest level. To think if whoever said no to Horizon at the DSS had been followed at the PO it wouldn't have happened. If Gordon Brown had had his way none of this would have happened. If the PO commissioning team had actually been allowed to do their job then...

First article in the times too.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/091281c1-c51f-48c4-bca1-088256305f4c?shareToken=401f8c0b9ea1c05c8ded651f9a61838c

Just want to reiterate how interesting the podcast is. The episodes are short so are a quick listen.
I know there's been a few questions on this thread re Horizon and Fujitsu. This episode of the podcast might answer some of those questions.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001sd4l
But I would encourage everyone to listen to the whole series.

Despite all the recent publicity and an excellent program no one will be held properly accountable and CBE will stay where it is

Met police investigating PO for fraud and Fujitsu witnesses for perjury.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/05/post-office-criminal-investigation-potential-horizon-accounting-fraud