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To draw your attention to Mr Bates vs The Post Office

810 replies

5foot5 · 01/01/2024 22:27

There is already a thread about this on the Telly Addicts forum here

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

However this seems like such an important subject that I thought I would draw attention to it on AIBU.

The first episode aired tonight but the whole series is available on itvx.

Most of you will no doubt have heard about the Horizon scandal, but whether you have or you haven't this program is compelling. It will probably make you furious but it deserves as wide an audience as possible.,

MR BATES VS THE POST OFFICE - mon to thur ITV 9pm - tv pace no spoilers | Mumsnet

Mon to thur  Mr Bates vs The Post Office is an ITV drama based on a true story of injustice starring Toby Jones, Julie Hesmondhalgh, WIll Mello...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

OP posts:
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61
SpecialCharacters · 08/01/2024 03:04

I see that, now that there’s a successful tv drama about it, the government are finally going to have a proper look 🙄

Decimate · 07/01/2024 23:17

Because those that were in charge would have lost their jobs and status and their massive salaries and their bonuses and their chance at being given a CBE/top job at ITV/plum job with the Welsh FA/and all the perks that being an executive brought them.

It was far easier to pin the blame on the little person with no resources to fight back than take the massive fall if they admitted fault. @Paul2023

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 22:40

TooOldForThisNonsense · 07/01/2024 22:31

Tbf I don’t think they were deliberately fucking over the postmasters. I think they were trying to fix the discrepancies caused by their shitty system. They should still never have been able to access it though it’s appalling

But in that case why did they let the lost masters take the blame when they knew there were glitches with then system?

TooOldForThisNonsense · 07/01/2024 22:31

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 21:53

So I’m still half way through the ITV programme.
What I don’t get is why Fujitsu were hacking into the post office accounts.
What were they gaining from it , other than trying to frame the post masters ?
Why? Who did it benefit?
What kind of people would do that and let innocent people go to prison for no apparent reason ?

Edited

Tbf I don’t think they were deliberately fucking over the postmasters. I think they were trying to fix the discrepancies caused by their shitty system. They should still never have been able to access it though it’s appalling

Ontobetterthings · 07/01/2024 22:07

I'm so disgusted after watching the programme. They need to sort this

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 21:53

So I’m still half way through the ITV programme.
What I don’t get is why Fujitsu were hacking into the post office accounts.
What were they gaining from it , other than trying to frame the post masters ?
Why? Who did it benefit?
What kind of people would do that and let innocent people go to prison for no apparent reason ?

Whydowomendothistothemselves · 07/01/2024 20:53

The government may not be able to pass a law overturning individual convictions, as this blurs the lines between government and judiciary; but they may be able to pass a law that states that any accusation of theft or false accounting based on the evidence of the Horizon system is not safe or accurate for the purposes of proving "beyond reasonable doubt" in a criminal court, and that this applies retrospectively to existing/past prosecutions/convictions. This might mean that the Court of Appeal can then effectively rubber-stamp the over-turning of convictions without having to hear a load of evidence in lengthy hearings. There will inevitably be a few who were rightly convicted having their cases overturned - but I'm afraid that's the fault and consequence of the PO prosecuting innocent SPMs in the first place.

prh47bridge · 07/01/2024 19:11

Meadowfinch · 07/01/2024 19:03

The CPS now needs to rule that EVERY conviction based on evidence from the Horizon system is fundamentally unsafe and overturn them all.

IF the Post Office has any credible evidence against any individual , they can then bring a secondary prosecution.

The Post Office lawyers need to be removed from the prosecution & appeals process. They have lost all credibility and should be facing charges of their own. As should senior execs from the Post Office who allowed this to happen. Every Post Office CEO of the period should be brought before parliament and asked to explain themselves, and then forced to apologise.

The establishment should hang their heads in shame. British Justice my arse !!

Unfortunately, the CPS cannot overturn convictions. That is the job of the courts. Even if the CPS offers no evidence on appeal, the courts can still decide to uphold the original conviction. In my view, the Court of Appeal has been getting this wrong, upholding some convictions that should have been overturned. The government may be able to pass a law overturning all convictions, but it isn't clear. There may be constitutional problems with doing so.

Meadowfinch · 07/01/2024 19:03

The CPS now needs to rule that EVERY conviction based on evidence from the Horizon system is fundamentally unsafe and overturn them all.

IF the Post Office has any credible evidence against any individual , they can then bring a secondary prosecution.

The Post Office lawyers need to be removed from the prosecution & appeals process. They have lost all credibility and should be facing charges of their own. As should senior execs from the Post Office who allowed this to happen. Every Post Office CEO of the period should be brought before parliament and asked to explain themselves, and then forced to apologise.

The establishment should hang their heads in shame. British Justice my arse !!

43ontherocksporfavor · 07/01/2024 18:55

It takes a tv program for the government to do the right thing!🤦🏼‍♀️

prh47bridge · 07/01/2024 18:19

GCAcademic · 07/01/2024 18:09

How is that even possible? Surely that was a conflict of interest with his role as Postal Affairs Minister? He's an absolute disgrace.

He wasn't working for them at the same time as being Postal Affairs Minister. He ceased to be Postal Affairs Minister in 2012 and took joined the legal firm (Herbert Smith Freehills) in 2015.

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 18:13

What is the likelihood of of those incompetent people being sent to jail? They quite happily sent innocent men and women to jail, and those that didn’t lost everything.

Some of those poor souls were under pressure to plead guilty even they knew they were innocent.

GCAcademic · 07/01/2024 18:09

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 16:54

I’ve just read that Ed Davey made hundreds of thousands of pounds working of a legal firm who were the same firm who prosecuted the post office sub masters.

Edited

How is that even possible? Surely that was a conflict of interest with his role as Postal Affairs Minister? He's an absolute disgrace.

chaosmaker · 07/01/2024 17:58

An ex subpostmaster was on the Laura Keunssberg programme today and basically said to write to your MP in support of them and that there are currently 3 different compensation schemes - which is a total nonsense as they were all defrauded by the same computer bugs which were known about at the time and from their accounts being accessed from outside when they weren't even in work.

For the current state of politics, see the following work from 80's or 90's Ben Elton. It really could be about today's tory party.

The Man From Auntie Series 1 Episode 4 part 2

Fourth episode of Ben Elton The Man From Auntieproperty of the BBC and other copyright holders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejky18tdOwE

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 16:54

I’ve just read that Ed Davey made hundreds of thousands of pounds working of a legal firm who were the same firm who prosecuted the post office sub masters.

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 16:24

A very sad case for that man. Was he properly compensated?
His dad died not knowing his conviction was quashed. So terrible

Lucieinthesky07 · 07/01/2024 16:04

Whydowomendothistothemselves · 07/01/2024 12:28

Fujitsu have been sued before, in the civil courts under contract law - a long running case about a system they implemented for the NHS. Which they won, basically, because their systems are only as good as the instructions they are given by the client (the government/NHS). That was a hugely complicated system. The PO one, which is effectively a double entry accounting system, you would think would be relatively straightforward. However, even if the system was rubbish because the PO's instructions were rubbish, that's a contract law/ civil case between government/PO and Fujitsu. I agree that politically the PO might not want to go there, and fingers have been burned in previous cases, with tax payers footing the legal bill.

However, what is being investigated by the Met is criminal charges against Fujitsu employees who lied on the witness stand during criminal prosecutions, under instruction from their superiors; and I think they should be looking at a possible criminal conspiracy between the PO and Fujitsu to defraud SPOs of their money through malicious and knowingly unfounded prosecutions backed up by false evidence from Fujitsu. The case of the lovely lady Jo in the dramatisation suggested that the PO had zero evidence against her when they were prosecuting her, yet they still pursued her to a guilty plea. That will not be an isolated incident. However, the dramatisation also suggested PO/Fujitsu were destroying evidence.

I sincerely hope that the Met police is free from political interference and investigate this thoroughly, and that prosecutions will happen. Certainly, and in an election year, the public are firmly on the side of the SPOs and want some justice in the criminal courts, so if political pressure does influence the Met, hopefully it will be on the side of the little people for a change. (Ha, ha, ha, we should all remain cynical)

Fujitsu are Corporate cowards, hiding behind the Horizon Inquiry and expensive Legal and crisis Management. They won't face any real scrutiny as they have too much leverage over the Government. The Met Police are hardly trustworthy! Fujitsu have the ageing Police National Computer (PNC), Mainframe and support contract with the Home Office. 'Computer says no today' 😀

Lalgarh · 07/01/2024 16:01

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 13:53

Didnt the Post Office think it was strange that so many of people were ‘ thieving’. Surely they must have thought that something wasn’t right and perhaps a computer glitch?

I’ll watch later anyway.

Will anyone for the Post office be prosecuted for this , genuinely?

Supposedly under the previously paper based accounting systems, the Post Office suspected that their sub postmasters were ripping them off, and so for them the apparent discrepancies that Horizon started showing proved their suspicions.
Ie confirmation bias

prh47bridge · 07/01/2024 14:30

Janieforever · 07/01/2024 11:37

I’m curious about if there were any errors the other way. In favour of the sub post masters,

to explain, all we have seen is errors that resulted in deficits, and the subpost managers made responsible

but maybe the errors could have worked both ways. Where it said there was extra money, I’m curious with it only ever causing a deficit or being completely accurate , that it never had errors in the sub post masters favour. Not the ones who suffered the deficits obvs, but that some sub post offices found the system telling them they had more money and it was basically theirs

it seems odd when they were in their messing with it so much, that the faults were only a deficit. Or competent accurate, it never failed to record properly and resulted in an excess.

Yes, there were. But the evidence is that the errors mainly favoured Post Office.

Horizon had to reconcile its figures with various Post Office clients (utilities, DVLA, Camelot, etc.). It almost invariably was unable to reconcile its figures. Post Office clients reckoned Post Office owed them less than Horizon thought it did. This discrepancy went into a suspense account for three years while Post Office supposedly investigated who the money belonged to, and was then added to Post Office profits. It doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone that this money might have belonged to subpostmasters.

But yes, sometimes there were errors in favour of subpostmasters.

prh47bridge · 07/01/2024 14:20

Lalgarh · 07/01/2024 11:26

I'm wondering if they are able to trace the actual line of code that might have been at fault

It wasn't a single line of code. There were loads of bugs in the software that could cause problems with a subpostmaster's accounts.

LlynTegid · 07/01/2024 14:01

This reminds you that tv dramas and indeed films whilst fictional can have an impact on people in real-life. Congratulations to ITV for shining a spotlight on this.

A previous example was the film about Alan Turing, that led to the pardoning of those convicted pre 1967 under the laws which criminalised homosexuality.

I think a pardon of all those convicted could be done speedily, each former sub-postmaster taken to court should not have to wait and apply individually.

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 13:53

Didnt the Post Office think it was strange that so many of people were ‘ thieving’. Surely they must have thought that something wasn’t right and perhaps a computer glitch?

I’ll watch later anyway.

Will anyone for the Post office be prosecuted for this , genuinely?