I’m confused: ‘The Spark Company’

[OhDear2200]

The Spark Company keeps popping up on my Facebook feed so thought I would have a look. Found lots of posts interesting until I got to a post about how their feminism includes trans women as they are women.

This is within many posts about women rising against the patriarchy.

I’m confused. Do trans women suffer from the patriarchy being biologically men?

Can transwomen suffer from sexism?

This is a genuine question I’m worried I’m being naive. I don’t want anyone (however they identify) to suffer discrimination or abuse. But I can’t help feeling (possibly irrationally) a bit peeved that trans women get to claim to be on the receiving end of the ‘patriarchy’.

Apparently this is progressive feminism.

Am I backwards?

I suppose transwomen can suffer from sexism, but not in the way that women do.

I don't know about patriarchy, I'm not sure I've ever really understood the term properly. Seems a bit abstract to me. Tired of abstractions. I think we need pragmatic solutions to life's issues for everyone, really, not more theories.

Those who are perceived as women by others can suffer sexism.

Those perceived as men suffer homophobia.

They suffer from the patriarchy in the same way as other men. Not the same way as women.

This isn’t feminism...

I think anyone can suffer from the patriarchy, little boys being told they cant cry because thats what girls do, they cant like pink or play with dolls etc etc, or that boys will be boys so they dont learn boundaries etc, and more delicate boys being made to toughen up etc. Isnt the point that everyone suffers under patriarchy its just that ultimately women tend to suffer more but its partly because of the way men are expected to be
So I guess there is no reason why transwomen dont also suffer under the patriarchy, its just its different for different people
The patriarchy isnt necessarily just sexist behaviour to women, its a society and system that moulds men and women into specific roles, so in that case yeah I guess I can see how transwomen and transmen would suffer
Something a friend shared of facebook stuck with me, although I cant remember exactly how it was said but essentially
The patriarchy has done a good job of convincing men women are over emotional, whilst simultaneously convincing them anger isnt an emotion so thats all they have left, maybe thats where some of the anger from TRAs originates from?

A subset of males who tell us 'woman' is nothing but a figment of their imaginations, that we must submit to their every demand, ignore our sexual orientations and use only the words they permit, removing our sex based protections and claiming our oppression as their own?

THEY ARE THE FUCKING PATRIARCHY!!!!

Males controlling females.
Same shit, different outfit.

A subset of males who tell us 'woman' is nothing but a figment of their imaginations, that we must submit to their every demand, ignore our sexual orientations and use only the words they permit, removing our sex based protections and claiming our oppression as their own?
THEY ARE THE FUCKING PATRIARCHY!!!!

@Whatsnewpussyhat

A subset of males who tell us 'woman' is nothing but a figment of their imaginations, that we must submit to their every demand, ignore our sexual orientations and use only the words they permit, removing our sex based protections and claiming our oppression as their own?

THEY ARE THE FUCKING PATRIARCHY!!!!

Males controlling females.
Same shit, different outfit.

Completely agree. This new ideology is a repetition of previous misogynistic philosophies that pondered how women just aren't fully human, that we don't have souls, that we're just a concept in men's heads which aligns with what they can use us for, our own experiences and material reality completely ignored in favour of men's feelings and sexual urges.

To the OP

So as a trans woman, i can say that being judged on your looks is taken to an extreme, i know women are judged on their looks and have what i feel are reasonable beliefs here, but i can't even go to the hospital without doing all my makeup, hair, nice clothes etc... because anything less then 100% makes it hard for ppl to accept me and even then i don't "pass", I've almost died this year from an overdose that lasted 6 days, would not go to the hospital, similar thing late last year with a possible blood clot, told to go to the hospital ASAP but wouldn't, couldn't walk for almost 3 weeks, finally went when it was feeling better one morning.

As for sexism, i know what it's like to be sexually assaulted, not just in pubs but at my own front door, multiple times by the same person and multiple people, being groomed for months to make me feel safe in dangerous situations before they became un-safe and i realised. So far since 2019 just counting sexual physical contact it's happened 23 times, there's more then that though.

Looks are literally the single most important aspect to every interaction you will ever have in your life as a trans woman, everything else people can let slide but how you look is the only thing you'll be judged on which is quite sad but is how the world works, and not a standard i hold against other women, as a result people see me always trying to look my best and think i'm shallow AF, because no one else goes all out just for a blood test at the doctors or a therapy zoom call, but given the choices i have being assumed to be shallow is the least of evils.

Not going to pretend i'm super clued up on sexism, patriarchy, misogyny, male privilege and all that, i still don't understand male privilege and don't feel i experienced any as a guy, I've asked a friend to explain it to me who knows me well but she never replies to my texts, as a guy people didn't even care if i died or ended up homeless, now though if i blip up on anyone's radar i get picked up and given help, it's like my life is suddenly worth less then zero or something.

I know I'm not welcome here on mumsnet as a trans woman, and originally i came here to ask a question to mums about something that confuses me about society as I've seen the debate it pop up on facebook again, nothing to do with trans / anti-trans stuff, probably related to women's and specifically mother's rights but don't think this forum is the best place to post it given the other posts here.

@lexxi87

To the OP

So as a trans woman, i can say that being judged on your looks is taken to an extreme, i know women are judged on their looks and have what i feel are reasonable beliefs here, but i can't even go to the hospital without doing all my makeup, hair, nice clothes etc... because anything less then 100% makes it hard for ppl to accept me and even then i don't "pass", I've almost died this year from an overdose that lasted 6 days, would not go to the hospital, similar thing late last year with a possible blood clot, told to go to the hospital ASAP but wouldn't, couldn't walk for almost 3 weeks, finally went when it was feeling better one morning.

As for sexism, i know what it's like to be sexually assaulted, not just in pubs but at my own front door, multiple times by the same person and multiple people, being groomed for months to make me feel safe in dangerous situations before they became un-safe and i realised. So far since 2019 just counting sexual physical contact it's happened 23 times, there's more then that though.

Looks are literally the single most important aspect to every interaction you will ever have in your life as a trans woman, everything else people can let slide but how you look is the only thing you'll be judged on which is quite sad but is how the world works, and not a standard i hold against other women, as a result people see me always trying to look my best and think i'm shallow AF, because no one else goes all out just for a blood test at the doctors or a therapy zoom call, but given the choices i have being assumed to be shallow is the least of evils.

Not going to pretend i'm super clued up on sexism, patriarchy, misogyny, male privilege and all that, i still don't understand male privilege and don't feel i experienced any as a guy, I've asked a friend to explain it to me who knows me well but she never replies to my texts, as a guy people didn't even care if i died or ended up homeless, now though if i blip up on anyone's radar i get picked up and given help, it's like my life is suddenly worth less then zero or something.

I know I'm not welcome here on mumsnet as a trans woman, and originally i came here to ask a question to mums about something that confuses me about society as I've seen the debate it pop up on facebook again, nothing to do with trans / anti-trans stuff, probably related to women's and specifically mother's rights but don't think this forum is the best place to post it given the other posts here.

If you don’t “pass” anyway, why bother? Be proud of being a man who pushes against “masculine’ stereotypes. Many women will support you in that. Also, for your medical treatment, you need to be treated as a biological man as your symptoms and health issues will be very different from those of biological women.

Please get the medical help you need when you need it - don’t delay getting hospital treatment etc.

Also, “trans woman” (with a space) makes you sound like you are a transman. “Transwoman” (without a space) is clearer.

Transwomen are transwomen. Women are women.

When we can agree on straight facts like that it's then easier to debate the wider picture. When 'women' means a mix of female and male it's clear as mud and debate stalls.

@OurMamInHavianas

I bother because without making an effort i get seen (and look like) a man, no chance would i walk into a womans bathroom or hospital looking like that and make people feel uncomfortable, making 100% effort is enough to make people take me seriously enough and know i'm not just a perv in a dress kinda thing.

In regards to medical treatment my birth sex is taken seriously where it's relevant and my gender identity is respected, my physical body does matter in healthcare and my feelings aren't hurt when for example i worry about a lump on my testicles or breasts and my GP or nurse does a check for me, when i get taken off the cervical screening program because... no cervix, everyone on the NHS has been exceptionally wonderful to me (trans healthcare is setup to hurt people but that's another convo) however, it's based on my appearance if i want to be taken seriously as trans or a woman.

I know if I'm having a drug overdose (i should be dead right now, by day 2 i accepted i was going to have a heart attack due to the symptoms) the hospital will help no matter what i look like, but i know my looks matter not just to me but to help people around me feel less uncomfortable, not going to hospital looks like a silly issue but will probably kill me at some point and i don't have a way to work around it due to not being able to fund surgery, losing my job because of this and being signed off work as a result, I'm so lucky to have benefits to pay the rent but won't ever be better, i also wanted to post on here to try and leverage the passion here to help me and others with something important but i think i will probably get banned for posting it.

When did science die?

People who look like men use the men's lavatory as that suits their anatomy. The separation in lavatories is due to sex variation.

@Enough4me

I used the men's bathroom for as long as i could before the trouble i was getting in there was too much and too often, it became a risk and one thing I've learnt from all the sexual assault I've had, not putting myself in a vulnerable position helps a lot, as well as not staying out late, being too drunk when i'm on my own, not walking around at night etc.... I started using the women's bathroom when it became too dangerous to use the men's and the response I've had from women seems to be that they either don't care or they're nice to me, again though that's down to looks and effort.

[quote lexxi87]@OurMamInHavianas

I bother because without making an effort i get seen (and look like) a man, no chance would i walk into a womans bathroom or hospital looking like that and make people feel uncomfortable, making 100% effort is enough to make people take me seriously enough and know i'm not just a perv in a dress kinda thing.

In regards to medical treatment my birth sex is taken seriously where it's relevant and my gender identity is respected, my physical body does matter in healthcare and my feelings aren't hurt when for example i worry about a lump on my testicles or breasts and my GP or nurse does a check for me, when i get taken off the cervical screening program because... no cervix, everyone on the NHS has been exceptionally wonderful to me (trans healthcare is setup to hurt people but that's another convo) however, it's based on my appearance if i want to be taken seriously as trans or a woman.

I know if I'm having a drug overdose (i should be dead right now, by day 2 i accepted i was going to have a heart attack due to the symptoms) the hospital will help no matter what i look like, but i know my looks matter not just to me but to help people around me feel less uncomfortable, not going to hospital looks like a silly issue but will probably kill me at some point and i don't have a way to work around it due to not being able to fund surgery, losing my job because of this and being signed off work as a result, I'm so lucky to have benefits to pay the rent but won't ever be better, i also wanted to post on here to try and leverage the passion here to help me and others with something important but i think i will probably get banned for posting it.[/quote]
Your pelvis angle, so the way you walk, will immediately give you away as being a man. As well as many other features. Women are aware from an early age who is a man. Men tend to be less aware and just seem to look at tits and hair.

Please do not use women’s toilets (bathrooms, to you). Women in there will know you are a man and some will be frightened.

Many women will support you in campaigning for a third space if you want one. Otherwise, you can use the facilities designed for your sex.

[quote lexxi87]@Enough4me

I used the men's bathroom for as long as i could before the trouble i was getting in there was too much and too often, it became a risk and one thing I've learnt from all the sexual assault I've had, not putting myself in a vulnerable position helps a lot, as well as not staying out late, being too drunk when i'm on my own, not walking around at night etc.... I started using the women's bathroom when it became too dangerous to use the men's and the response I've had from women seems to be that they either don't care or they're nice to me, again though that's down to looks and effort.[/quote]
Many of us do care. And many of us are are frightened. We are nice to you because we are scared you will turn on us if we aren’t. That’s women’s socialisation.

Women are not a human shield.

@OurMamInHavianas

See my previous post, it touches on what you said. If i post something against the rules will my whole account get banned or will my single post just get removed?

If people are active i may as well ask if what i want to post is ok or not but will write it in a post by itself if i won't get banned outright as depending on your perspective it could be read as "how to kill off trans women" or something.

If TW 'win' all biological women lose sex based rights. Then TW can never be women as even bio women aren't allowed to be women. That's the cycle TW don't understand. By taking away what women are, they lose what they wanted...
because it is never possible to genetically take every Y chromosome and change it to an X and never possible to reverse the male developmental changes.

@Enough4me

Ok, I'm not here to debate that with you and I've heard it many times over, nothing i can say makes a difference and it's not a discussion I can be bothered to put time into yet again.

Why can't TW be TW and request separate facilities (lavatories, sports, prisons etc.) women and men could support this and it would be fair?

[quote lexxi87]@OurMamInHavianas

See my previous post, it touches on what you said. If i post something against the rules will my whole account get banned or will my single post just get removed?

If people are active i may as well ask if what i want to post is ok or not but will write it in a post by itself if i won't get banned outright as depending on your perspective it could be read as "how to kill off trans women" or something.[/quote]
I don’t understand your message.
The only posts on here that get deleted are ones that mention autogynephilia, which most people claiming to be TW have.
Women do not want to be unwilling participants in men’s paraphilias.

If men are hurting TW, take that up with men. Don’t push down on women just because we look like an easier target.

@Enough4me

Aside from the impracticality and enormous drain of public resources that would cost and private businesses for compliance it would be a difficult thing to police and is not necessary. If I'm just going to get trolled all night then I'm signing off because it's a waste of time.

I don't think the costs should prevent this from happening though. Many facilities could have a separate area nearby and it allows male, female and transitioning people all respect. Stonewall has the money and strength to push for additional facilities.

For example, additional sports scholarships could be set up for TW, as otherwise all women's scholarships potentially become TW scholarships due to testosterone advantage. Separate scholarships mean win-win, women keep their scholarships and TW have scholarships.