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Alison Phipps

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mintkoala Mon 08-Feb-21 11:10:00

So Alison Phipps cropped up on another thread recently, making frankly batshit remarks about race and trans rights.

So I looked into her a bit and I found this
genderate.wordpress.com/2021/02/05/seven-lessons/
(hope the link works, not sure I did it right.) And I found myself agreeing with her!

It's about dealing with sexual assault in universities and she makes some wise and interesting points. For instance, talking about how universities just shunt abusers on to other institutions so the problem appears to be solved but women are not protected. Or the way you can run a media campaign for the problem but end up providing sexy clickbait.

She somehow fits this into an overarching ideology about capitalism and race and how we therefore shouldn't have prisons or separate toilets. I really don't see how she fits it together like this and wondered what other people thought?

OP’s posts: |
Justhadathought Mon 08-Feb-21 11:17:44

Just had a peak, and definitely not something that is easy or at all pleasurable to read.

Over-arching theories and ideologies are one thing, but meanwhile we live in the real world, and the characteristics of that real world impact on people and on groups of people.

The thing about over-arching 'the right side of history' arguments and movements, is that they see the present and the people in it as collateral damage; as dispensable. As a price worth paying to achieve the promised land.

Biscuitsanddoombar Mon 08-Feb-21 12:54:37

Dr Jane clare Jones is not impressed

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1358567449122271232?s=21

hallouminatus Mon 08-Feb-21 12:54:43

So I looked into her a bit and I found this
genderate.wordpress.com/2021/02/05/seven-lessons/

I looked too, and found this:
janeclarejones.com/2020/01/15/unreasonable-ideas-a-reply-to-alison-phipps/
Which I highly recommend.

NecessaryScene1 Mon 08-Feb-21 13:36:16

Ouch. Can't say she doesn't deserve it though.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1358761383354109955 (archive)

Maybe stop weaponising your fragile bourgeois white femininity to try and protect yourself and deflect warranted critique when people call you on your shit hey?

"I'm a survivor myself and when people critique my misogynist crap I retreat and feel vulnerable and apparently when I do that I am not weaponising anything or engaging in political whiteness because that's only something those bitches over there do."

"And just imagine how terrible it must be when those bitches do it to people who are really vulnerable because those people are really vulnerable unlike those nasty cows who are just weaponsing their white-lady tears (which are totally different from my white lady tears obvs) in order to hurt people who actually matter and this description of political whiteness in no way looks like a perfect description of trans activism and anyone who thinks it does is just an hetropatriarchal colonial bigot natch."

[...]

If you give a fuck about anti-colonialism go and talk to the women in Nigeria about what is happening there you absolute fucking hypocrite.

Where they still have child marriage and FGM and breast ironing, and are still being called privileged bitches by trans activists and their allies.

Now, run along and weaponise your trauma against the nasty evil women who are just such awful terrible meanies to poor little you when really you did nothing at all other than tell women who want some ind of social recognition and recompense for the way they are violated day in and day out of being a bunch of nasty racist bourgeois Karens.

And yes, please go right ahead and quote tweet me as further evidence of your 'political whiteness.'

God I despise you.

mintkoala Mon 08-Feb-21 14:09:15

Biscuits, Halloumi - thanks, plenty of food for thought in there. Particularly interested in Dani Ahrens discussion of prostitution and intersectionality.

But still finding myself nodding along with Allison until she suddenly plunges off into lunacy.

OP’s posts: |
Daca Mon 08-Feb-21 16:54:42

It seems as if it's women like AP for whom the term 'white fragility' was invented. You know the type, who will pedantically correct you when you use a term that's not quite in line with current progressive etiquette but is terrified that the world will find out about her own unacceptable thoughts and feelings. All while living in a nice period property in lily-white Brighton, with adorable floppy-haired children and home-made biscuits, both tastefully displayed on social media. A bit like an academic Nigella but with a double helping of hypocrisy. (Also Nigella actually seems to have a sense of humour.) I wish academics wouldn't do this, and I can understand why JCJ finds it so infuriating.

WendyTestaburger Mon 08-Feb-21 18:35:26

I wish academics would write in accessible language.

I'm a woman & a rape survivor. I feel I have a stake in what she writes about it.

I have a masters, which required a massive thesis, and I write regularly in my job. But I find this impenetrable! Perhaps it's because it is about something that is real life to me, not academic. I probably can't read about rape without having a very mild trauma response which will affect my brain's ability to pull meaning from it.

It kind of feels unfair of her though.

I did see her quoted on twitter. It seemed she was likening women reporting rape to the (hideous, misogynist) Karen thing. It seemed as logical as ACAB. I mean I personally have never reported any of the sex crimes against me because I don't trust the police & criminal justice system not to re traumatise me. But I don't think having no police is the answer! I want better fucking police! In a lawless situation I would expect those with physical and structural power to dominate, which is surely white men?

Socrates11 Mon 08-Feb-21 18:57:31

Great link to Dr Jones's superb analysis Hallouminate. Sums up Phipps and all the gender woo 'thinkers', no substantive arguments about GC feminism just falsehoods and misdirection.

Really have not got any time for Phipps with her nonsensical claims and impenetrable bullshit ideas, although not quite as terrible as Butler it must be said. Tried with her book and life is just too short for all that gobbledegook. Ahrens excellent review for Radical Notion (1) sums the Phipps, Me Not You book up unimpressive, unfocused, unconvincing and unhelpful

theradicalnotion.org/activism-as-ethical-consumerism-a-review-of-me-not-you/

sourdoughismyreligion Mon 08-Feb-21 20:32:34

mintkoala

So Alison Phipps cropped up on another thread recently, making frankly batshit remarks about race and trans rights.

So I looked into her a bit and I found this
genderate.wordpress.com/2021/02/05/seven-lessons/
(hope the link works, not sure I did it right.) And I found myself agreeing with her!

It's about dealing with sexual assault in universities and she makes some wise and interesting points. For instance, talking about how universities just shunt abusers on to other institutions so the problem appears to be solved but women are not protected. Or the way you can run a media campaign for the problem but end up providing sexy clickbait.

She somehow fits this into an overarching ideology about capitalism and race and how we therefore shouldn't have prisons or separate toilets. I really don't see how she fits it together like this and wondered what other people thought?

Ya, great example of the motte and the bailey. TRAs do this all the time.

The bailey, an outrageous argument, in this case, let's abolish prisons and single sex toilets and aren't rape victims whiney bitches for going to the police.

The motte, the sensible argument, universities aren't solving the problem of sexual violence, they just shunt it from institution to institution.

Ignore the motte, the bailiey is where the action is, the bailey is what they actually want.

ArabellaScott Mon 08-Feb-21 22:18:07

The abstract of that article is actually disgusting. I can't believe this passes for academic argument - it's completely repugnant.

NiceGerbil Tue 09-Feb-21 01:16:42

Well the first half or so is ok then it goes bonkers.

Carceral feminists... Boo to women who want rapists sent to prison!

Having sexual offences illegal in law.. what a waste of time! (I mean yes I'm practice but the solution...)

'For Mia Mingus, accountability requires four steps from someone who has caused harm: self-reflection, apology, repair, and changed behaviour. It centres the person who has been harmed, their understanding of why the behaviour was harmful and their definition of what constitutes repair. It makes space for that repair, acknowledging that none of us is above causing harm and we may all need that space someday. It is the job of the perpetrator and not the survivor, and requires significant community input and support.'

Erm. Sounds like a sort of 60s commune thing where the rapist and the raped woman sit in a tent with a load of Brady pontificators while they say ok and hmmm what do you want now then?

Fuck that

The implication that the law etc works for white women is insulting as well.

It doesn't work for any women. It works even less for women who have extra axes of oppression- what is intersectionality was originally about.

So white women who are sexually assaulted or raped get a better outcome than other women. And for all of them it's pretty much zero interest.

So come and sit in a tent and make it up with your assailant!

Yay!

Fucks sake.

Beamur Tue 09-Feb-21 09:30:18

JCJ writes an excellent burn.
How can someone disappear so far down an intellectual rabbit hole to come up with such nonsense?

Winesalot Tue 09-Feb-21 09:37:02

The fact that Phipps then turned to twitter to say she was a victim of hate tweeting took the cake. An academic stating women ‘victimized’ rape and sexual assaults, being ‘victimized’ by women pointing out how offensive that article was. What a surprise...

Winesalot Tue 09-Feb-21 10:40:07

Reading through those 7 steps though. All seems ok until you get to 'stop calling the manager'. Not only is this absolutely tone deaf now that Karen is 'a thing' and I don't know when this was written but it seems to tie into Phipps other work about 'white feminism' and 'tears', but Phipps for all the expertise she is claiming does not propose a solution.

So, girls and women - stop complaining it is making things hard for other minorities. It it YOUR fault for making it hard for other minorities so SHUT UP. That is the way I read it. I understand her point but she is pointing blame at women instead of where it belongs, the institutions who 'virtue signal' but don't ever fix the systemic problems

White and middle-class feminists have called for more police, more convictions and longer sentences – and when something goes wrong in our workplaces, we ask the manager to sort it out. And when we turn to authority, we legitimate and bolster that authority. In our efforts to address personal abuses of power, we turn to the institutional power that facilitates them. In thinking we can be safe in our institutions by punishing the ‘bad’ men, we conceal the fact that the institution itself is unsafe.

I am not an academic, but nothing in this paragraph shows any empathy for others who have been attacked and is stating clearly that anyone calling for punishment is deluded that punishment will make it better for anyone else. Just the opposite.

There is also a difference between punishment and accountability. Punishment is a passive and impersonal process – the person who has been harmed hands over their power and is kept in the dark (although nevertheless it requires a huge amount of courage and work). Accountability, in contrast, is both personal and active. For Mia Mingus, accountability requires four steps from someone who has caused harm: self-reflection, apology, repair, and changed behaviour. It centres the person who has been harmed, their understanding of why the behaviour was harmful and their definition of what constitutes repair. It makes space for that repair, acknowledging that none of us is above causing harm and we may all need that space someday. It is the job of the perpetrator and not the survivor, and requires significant community input and support.

is just make believe wishful thinking.... As other's had stated. Putting victim and perpetrator in a tent and after extensive 'counselling' believing that the perp will never do it again. I guess I am just too cynical and worn down from life to think that this is true. I WISH I could be that naive again.

Sadly, it seems this person consults on these issues and influences policy around these issues. That is where the issues lie and I see it repeated on many of these threads. The belief that laws and policies should reflect the idyll or the future utopia and not the gut wrenching reality.

That and the victim shaming for wanting justice, the playing the 'white feminist' card, makes it despicable.

Alltheprettyseahorses Tue 09-Feb-21 11:06:19

Huh! Alison thinks BAME women who disagree with her are 'white feminists'. Well no one could accuse Alison of being one could they?

Ereshkigalangcleg Tue 09-Feb-21 11:07:26

I don't think anyone could accuse her of being feminist, no.

Ereshkigalangcleg Tue 09-Feb-21 11:08:43

The fact that Phipps then turned to twitter to say she was a victim of hate tweeting took the cake. An academic stating women ‘victimized’ rape and sexual assaults, being ‘victimized’ by women pointing out how offensive that article was. What a surprise...

Seriously? confused words fail me.

Winesalot Tue 09-Feb-21 11:12:13

journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1367549420985852

Abstract: Using #MeToo as a starting point, this paper argues that the cultural power of mainstream white feminism partly derives from the cultural power of white tears. This in turn depends on the dehumanisation of people of colour, who were constructed in colonial ‘race science’ as incapable of complex feeling (Schuller, 2018). Colonialism also created a circuit between bourgeois white women’s tears and white men’s rage, often activated by allegations of rape, which operated in the service of economic extraction and exploitation. This circuit endures, abetting the criminal punishment system and the weaponisation of ‘women’s safety’ by the various border regimes of the right. It has especially been utilised by reactionary forms of feminism, which set themselves against sex workers and trans people. Such feminisms exemplify what I call ‘political whiteness’, which centres assertions of victimhood: through these, womanhood (and personhood) is claimed to the exclusion of the enemy. Through legitimating criminal punishment and border policing and dehumanising marginalised Others, claims to victimhood in mainstream feminism often end up strengthening the intersecting violence of racial capitalism and heteropatriarchy.

Siablue Tue 09-Feb-21 11:29:13

This has really upset me. It is just victim blaming and racism which she gets away with by pretending that it is feminism. In reality she is just an MRA.

The whole as I white women I think you should read more black feminist (but as most of them disagree with me I am going to cite Robin DiAngelo instead) is not convincing. No one outside her tiny privileged little bubble is falling for it at all so it is lucky that she knows how to weaponise her wounded whiteness to tell all the black victims of domestic abuse how much they have upset them.

The whole community justice thing where you sit in a room with your rapist and tell them how much it upset you would really work on John Warboys wouldn’t it. Rapist know that it upsets women that’s why they do it.

There are some things that you do need to call the manager for or the police. She is in such a privileged position that she doesn’t need to think about what she would do if someone threatened her with a gun or a knife but guess what the nasty woman who do are much more likely to be black.

No one in my freedom program is white. Most of us reported our abusers to the police. They didn’t do anything for the most part but because we did we get to keep our children. If that makes us horrible Karen’s so be it.

mintkoala Tue 09-Feb-21 11:46:19

Seriously not getting the whiteness/political whiteness thing. It looks like she is pointing at white supremacist tactics in the US South, where there was a big myth that eg the KKK existed to protect white women, or at least white ladies, from black rapists. Then she's going on to say that, this is racism, this is the whole of racism, this is always how racism works, this is always how white people relate to black people. And therefore when white women object to sexual violence it is enacting racism. And I'm not a clever person but it feels like there are links missing in the argument and she just skates from one claim to another and covers up the gaps with abuse.

If she was making an argument that for instance, a large amount of sexual assault occurs in the context of immigration enforcement and therefore looking at immigration law would have more impact on women's safety than worrying about university students, that would be a coherent position that could be discussed. But instead her arguments become so detached from reality that she can't come up with any practical solutions and floats off into talking about everyone sitting down together and persuading people to make a good apology.

OP’s posts: |
Daca Tue 09-Feb-21 12:03:23

mintkoala - don't do yourself down, you're exactly right. Phipps takes a historical situation in another country and turns it into a universal law. It's highly irresponsible.

Winesalot Tue 09-Feb-21 12:07:28

The whole community justice thing where you sit in a room with your rapist and tell them how much it upset you would really work on John Warboys wouldn’t it.. I am sure that they would find it very arousing of their sensibilities... or something.

ArabellaScott Tue 09-Feb-21 12:11:18

Re the 'punishment' thing - I'm not in the slightest interested in punishment. I just want violent, predatory, dangerous men off the streets and somewhere they can't continue to rape, assault and murder women.

*There is also a difference between punishment and accountability. Punishment is a passive and impersonal process – the person who has been harmed hands over their power and is kept in the dark (although nevertheless it requires a huge amount of courage and work). Accountability, in contrast, is both personal and active. For Mia Mingus, accountability requires four steps from someone who has caused harm: self-reflection, apology, repair, and changed behaviour. It centres the person who has been harmed, their understanding of why the behaviour was harmful and their definition of what constitutes repair. It makes space for that repair, acknowledging that none of us is above causing harm and we may all need that space someday. It is the job of the perpetrator and not the survivor, and requires significant community input and support.

I'm also not that stirred about their recovery and healing process and not inclined to spend much of my emotional energy on offering offenders 'input and support'. I'd rather fight for the safety of victims and put energy into their healing - because god fucking knows they need 'community input and support'.

Maybe elsewhere in the text Phipps is centring victims/survivors? Hope so.

Winesalot Tue 09-Feb-21 12:13:31

mintkoala

She seems to makes a habit of making her work hard to follow like Butler does from the little I have read. And yes, to start with those steps were unsurprising nor controversial.

You have got it though, her arguments are detached and any point she might make that is relevant, if there was one, is lost.

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