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Tortoise article on JKR - a more reasonable tone, but still a letdown

(17 Posts)
lalalalaloo Mon 02-Nov-20 17:19:13

twitter.com/tortoise/status/1323199429562765317?s=20

Tortoise have done an article on the whole shebang of what happened when JRK Tweeted initially in support of Maya Forstater, and then about her other essay and thoughts.

It goes into some detail around the GRA, the conflict of rights and honestly, it is probably one of the more fairer pieces I have read.

There are a few things though, they didnt ask for someone to represent her opinion. Instead we hear from Finn Mackay, the head of marketing at Mugglenet and others. All fairly anti JKR. But the moderator is reasonable.

They also state that her fears are not really valid - that women are at no more risk in unisex changing rooms. We all know this is bollocks. We can all search the internet for evidence that contradicts that piece.

Have a read. Let me know what you think.

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 02-Nov-20 17:30:10

I'm really disappointed in Tortoise. The whole article has the tone of TWAW but we're going to try really hard to understand these transphobic older women.

I had thought Tortoise media was better than that and wrote really well researched and evidence pieces. Obviously I was wrong.

JuiceFromOrangePeelInYourEye Mon 02-Nov-20 17:46:18

I found what Finn Mckay had to say particularly enlightening.

Ironically the group that poses the highest threat to women and trans women appears to be men.

We should be cautious not to undermine women or imbrute transgender people.

I doubt very much that someone like Janet Mock is pretending that she suffered gender dysphoria to the point of undergoing life threatening surgeries to live in a body she could cope with. Why do that to yourself? Girld and Trans girls like Iyanna Dior, deserve protection and dignity not fear.

At the same time we can acknowledge that cross-dressing men with the same mindsets as "Colonel" Russell Williams or Steve Wright pose a very real threat to women (and come to think of it trans women who look like women). Perhaps not as serial killers but as voyeurs or sexual assaulters. These men have always been around and steps must be taken to protect girls from such predators.

I imagine a fear that trans women have is that they are mistaken for one of these sexually depraved seedy men and shunned or worse assaulted or killed.

Surely there must be a resolution that cares for women and transgender women and weeds out the weirdos.

Our children and great grandchildren could be girls or transgender or gay or autistic or etc etc etc. and it makes sense (like a form of insurance) to start to work towards a world that is inclusive and sensitive to all but the depraved and bigoted amongst us.

SadlyMissTaken Mon 02-Nov-20 17:57:30

Unfortunately it's often not possible to identify the depraved until they do something depraved. Which is why even sweet old not-my-Nigel isn't allowed in female changing rooms, NHS wards, prisons and toilets.

lalalalaloo Mon 02-Nov-20 18:02:01

That's the whole point, and one that the article spectacularly misses- that there is no way to tell who is a safe male person and who isn't. And that the only way to safeguard women is to keep us separate.

I liked the comment underneath about affirmative action and equity for women, how is that going to be managed if women can't have a single sex space or shortlist or scholarship.

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Aesopfable Mon 02-Nov-20 18:35:53

I imagine a fear that trans women have is that they are mistaken for one of these sexually depraved seedy men and shunned or worse assaulted or killed.

We know that 50% of transwomen in prison are there for sexual offences. We also know that transwomen have the same rate if offending as other men. In addition we also know that transwomen are one of the safest groups in society in terms of being murdered with fewer transwomen murdered in the uk than transwomen murderers.

lalalalaloo Mon 02-Nov-20 20:13:58

I couldn't help myself. I had to tweet a reply to say that I thought that their article was poorly researched and no right to reply from the opposing argument.

Below the line as per. Not sure why I've been deboosted.

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littlbrowndog Mon 02-Nov-20 20:18:14

Can’t read it. They want my email address

lalalalaloo Mon 02-Nov-20 21:07:12

you can put a fake one in and it accepts it. I did that. There's no validation. Unless someone has already used fakename@fakeaddress.com

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wellbehavedwomen Mon 02-Nov-20 21:12:45

I hope someone posts the link to the very real difference to risk for women between single sex spaces, and spaces that allow men in (and then the reality that sex offending patterns are based on sex, with gender identity an irrelevance).

thinkingaboutLangCleg Mon 02-Nov-20 21:31:36

I tried, Lala, but it left me with an image of someone trying to stir a giant pudding with a knitting needle -- so much effort, so little result. For example, the writers have interviewed several people about JKR, but not actually spoken to her. Their deference to the transgender narrative is very clear.

There's a long straw-man argument by a woman called Finn Mackay (who surprisingly identifies as a radical feminist), pretending we're claiming that men could get a GRC one day and change legally back to being men the next day.

They quote a TW Canadian sociologist saying is there evidence of cisgender women being harmed in women’s washrooms? No
Wait a moment and I'll dig out some of the court cases that say Yes. But the writers didn't bother to do that simple research.

The writers quote JKR as writing that men can get GRCs without any need for surgery or hormones, then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That’s the simple truth.” Ceri: "As we heard from Finn McKay, it’s not really that simple."

Actually, as Ceri would know if she had looked up the wording of the GRA, it really is that simple, even under the present law without self-ID. And in fact very few transwomen ever have genital surgery.

They note that older feminists tend to define women by biology whereas younger women are more into identity. (A natural part of the ageing process, in my view, as reality does take over from fantasy when we get into the real world.) I don't blame them for not drawing the obvious conclusion about maturity and experience -- I wouldn't have at their age!

thinkingaboutLangCleg Mon 02-Nov-20 21:39:19

Above all, [JKR] says, if transgender women are allowed to self-ID, women and girls will be in physical danger in places like changing rooms and toilets. And on that, it’s hard – actually, I think it’s impossible – to find the evidence to agree with her.

It is quite difficult to get accurate statistics since police and courts in the UK now describe male offenders as women, if the offender chooses this. But it can be done.

lalalalaloo Mon 02-Nov-20 23:26:06

There's a very easily accessible Independent article someone has linked. They just didn't want to hear it, I think.

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Abitofalark Tue 03-Nov-20 12:53:14

Who are the authors of the article please - for the information of those who may not have access to twitter or can't open a link for some reason?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 03-Nov-20 16:19:05

members.tortoisemedia.com/2020/11/02/jk-rowling-long-read/content.html

Longer post based on the initial piece I think. (Author of this piece Hattie Garlick)

SebastianTheCrab Tue 03-Nov-20 19:54:23

The Tortoise is mostly ex Guardian "journalists". So this doesn't surprise me at all.

Abitofalark Wed 04-Nov-20 00:42:40

Thank you, ItsAllGoingToBeFine, for posting that link and author. I've just read it and it was certainly long but a tedious read. To me it was a stretched-out piece that dwelt laboriously on length and detail about JK Rowling to little point or purpose.
I see there is another item linked at the end of that article, a transcript of a newscast. I will have a go at it tomorrow. Need a break after that!

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