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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tras trying to get sectioned tw moved to women's ward

25 replies

Nightwitch · 04/04/2019 00:52

Just in case this is true and not attention seeking nonsense. This can't happen can it?

Tras trying to get sectioned tw moved to women's ward
OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 04/04/2019 01:11

Yes it can happen and has happened:

www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/lancaster-mum-with-fear-of-men-locked-on-hospital-ward-with-transgender-patient-1-8963648

Unfortunately the NHS has been ignoring the needs of women/girls for a fair while now, and basing its "single sex" wards on self identified gender rather than sex. So even if this person hasn't got a GRC it is likely they will be placed in a women's ward on the basis of the self identified gender alone.

thenightsky · 04/04/2019 01:18

I visited a friend on a locked psychiatric ward last year where there was also a trans woman who was huge... Like over 6ft and scarily aggressive.

Nightwitch · 04/04/2019 01:21

Shit. How is that a good idea for anybody?

OP posts:
terfsandwich · 04/04/2019 01:31

This was how that rapist who was put in a women's jail committed some of his offences - raping girls or women in a female psych ward.
His name escapes me now - Karen someone.
PS I'm using "he" because Mumsnet HQ has stated previously that we are allowed to do this where the crime outrages community sensibilities, ie calling Ian Huntley a man.

Fallingirl · 04/04/2019 03:09

It was Karen White. And by raping the committed a crime that can only be committed by a person with a penis.

Rape is defined in law as putting a penis into an orifice of another person, who does not consent to it being there.

Why anyone ever thought it was appropriate to put a still bepenised rapist in a women’s prison or in a female closed hospital ward even if they haddened been convicted of rape yet, beggars belief.

Sarahjconnor · 04/04/2019 08:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NellieEllie · 04/04/2019 08:08

Just to point out for accuracy, White was convicted of sexual assault on women inmates. The rape offences were prior to custody. Obviously still outrageous.

terfsandwich · 04/04/2019 08:17

Yes, my point was that he raped psych ward inmates prior to prison.

Hulo · 04/04/2019 08:25

I worked with a woman once who, when unwell, became psychotic and attack men. We could only assign female workers to work with her when she began to relapse before we got her into hospital asap.

I wonder how that would work today. Not sure how you could get her to buy into gender identity when angry and ill.

JackyHolyoake · 04/04/2019 08:43

This letter from some lawyers explains that to place a male transitioner in a women's ward is a breach of the Equality Act 2010:

forwomen.scot/30/03/2019/tie-letter-legal-response/

Beyond that the Equality Act clearly states that hospitals are exempt from any charge of sex discrimination where provision of services is or needs to be single sex. See Schedule 3, section 27, subsection 5a
(5) The condition is that the service is provided at a place which is, or is part of—

(a) a hospital, or

(b) another establishment for persons requiring special care, supervision or attention.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3

Schedule 3, section 28 [Gender Reassignment] states:
Gender reassignment
28(1) A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
(2) The matters are—

(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;

(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;

(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

GrumpyGran8 · 04/04/2019 14:09

Oh no! I know a woman with MH problems who has been sectioned twice in the past, in two seperate clinics (this was about two decades ago). I visited her in both clinics and was pleased to see that the wards were very strictly sex-segregated; even male medical staff couldn't enter the womens' section, except in an emergency. My male partner accompanied me; he was sad at being excluded but completely understood why segregation was necessary. (He was also angry at what some men do to women, to put them in a place like that.)
Men aren't the main reason for my friend's problems, but she has had bad experiences with them in the past. My friend has been OK for years, but any sudden crisis could push her over the edge again; having to share a ward with a male wouldn't help her recovery at all..

Knicknackpaddyflak · 04/04/2019 16:32

I say this a lot because it's gobsmacking in mindblowing stupidity on the part of the authorities involved. White sexually assaulted women prisoners while in a woman's prison awaiting trial for vicious multiple rapes on a woman in MH health ward. Where White had been 'included' as a woman.

So having used self ID to leave a woman multiply raped and badly injured, White was then put into a women's prison to await trial. Where White availed Whiteself of further victims.

I still have not got my head around how this was allowed to happen when the local village preschool would have risk assessed this as an obvious disaster waiting to happen. How little do you have to care about women to have put this predator straight from one offense as a result of self id into another?

This case proved the point. It was argued that White was obviously 'not really trans' (taking advantage of self ID) - however there was no objective way to determine other than asking White. (Layla Moran wasn't available to check White's soul.) White is as trans as anyone else is.

Or it was argued that women are violent too (insert major eye roll and facts here) so violent rapist TW should be in women's prisons like any other woman prisoner. In which case, no, biological women aren't cannon fodder to test this one out, and have human rights too. Including not being locked up with men imprisoned for violently raping, assaulting and sexually offending with women as their targets. You'd have to be out of your tiny mind to think that one's ok.

BettyDuMonde · 04/04/2019 16:51

There were some interesting opinions and experiences posted on this previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297578-NHS-confuse-sex-and-gender-on-advice-about-The-Mental-Health-Act

Of course, we’re in a post Karen White world now, so I woul imagine that if the person mentioned on Twitter has been assigned to the men’s facility, they won’t be able to move to a women only ward without a thorough risk assesment.

Presumably a mixed sex ward is an option (which you would hope would be staffed/laid out appropriately for risk managing mixed sex patients - quite different to a women only facility).

There was an account posted by a nurse (IIRC?) regarding the additional staffing needs and associated costs of accommodating a trans person in accordance with their acquired gender - in the current climate, I suspect this will be considered when making a decision.

There is a massive shortage of psychiatric nurses at present. I know two who have recently burned out and moved into community/research positions instead.

BoomBoomsCousin · 04/04/2019 18:33

How little do you have to care about women to have put this predator straight from one offense as a result of self id into another?

My understadning of what happened with White in the prison system was that they were in for a different offence while being investigated for the rapes. They had not been charged with the rapes when then applied to be treated as a woman and housed in the woman's estate so the authorities doing the risk assessment did not know about the rapes or the use of self-ID to gain access to vulnerable women.

However, we (and the authorities) know that very few rapists are reported, fewer still arrested, even fewer charged and only something in the region of 1% of rapists are convicted of their crimes. The point here being that at the point they applied to be in the Women's estate White was not known to be a sexual predator - just like the vast majority of sexual predators.

A rapist having a prior record for rape is uncommon and we need to be loud about that fact. It's not OK to put anyone capable of rape in with women, especially vulnerable ones.

Pandamodium · 04/04/2019 21:47

I've had psychiatric stays. Not for violence unless you count towards myself but I digress. Someone who identified as a women with a fully intact penis was placed in the women's corridor in the room next to mine.

I awoke to them wanking over my face.

I consider myself lucky I have heard plenty worse stories over the years.

Mumfun · 04/04/2019 23:49

OMG Pandamonium that is unbelievable. So unsafe!

Ereshkigal · 04/04/2019 23:56

Pandemonium Thanks

Thesepreciousthings · 05/04/2019 00:12

I’m too tired to RTFT but wanted to share my relevant experience. I will browse previous posts in the morning, with coffee.

I have spent around 18 months of the last 5 years sectioned and detained on a few different psychiatric wards in different hospitals. It is worth pointing out that on some occasions part of the initial reason I was ‘put away’ was due to sexual vulnerability. Lack of insight and awareness of the dangers of my behaviour obviously also played a part. I am not sure how much people know about Bipolar mania but sharing that may provide some background.

My first experience of a psychiatric hospital was when I was placed out of town on a mixed sex ward. I had one bloke who stared at me for the full 28 day stay. I had another who for a good few days followed me everywhere rubbing his penis. Eventually I bought it up with staff and was informed that he was ‘vulnerable’ but that they’d have a word. I wish I’d had the insight to say ‘I’m vulnerable too’. He did stop but I spent a lot of time avoiding being anywhere alone anywhere near him.

The main psych ward in my area has a mixed sex assessment ward. I have been there anything between 2 days and 9 weeks. The main difference between this ward and the previous is that only you and staff can access your bedroom. There is an en-suite toilet in your room. I was once blocked into my room as I tried to leave by a 6ft angry bloke with a habit of spitting on the floor. Thankfully a staff member happened to wander down the corridor and intervene.

It is worth mentioning the male staffing issue. All of the wards I have been on (bar the one I’m on at present) have had large numbers of male staff, including women only wards. On the women’s ward you share a room with a door that doesn’t close. Your privacy depends on a horribly flimsy taupe curtain. Staff do not knock when they do checks. It makes for an unnerving experience trying to get undressed. On other wards there is a window on the doors where staff can release the shutter with a key and peer in. Male or female. When I have been on 1-1 supervision I have frequently woken up to a random bloke next to my bed. Often these are not staff you have met before, just random NHS bank staff.

I have never been a victim of male sexual violence or indeed physical abuse yet I often feel very uncomfortable with the intrusion of men into my private space when I am vulnerable to the point of being legally detained. Many of the women I have met in these hospitals have a history of sexual trauma. I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it must feel to be so powerless to escape their past when even in a supposed ‘safe’ place their safety and dignity is compromised.

I am also aware of how many women are ignored when they raise allegations of sexual assault and raped. I dread to think of the victim blaming that could arise from such a scenario; ‘she was crazy’, ‘she imagined it’, ‘she made it up’.

My fear is, I guess that the already voiceless, the mad and often despised women will be totally silenced and eventually forgotten. I struggle to reconcile that the times I have been deemed legally and medically unable to consent to sex yet have been locked in a building with unwell and volatile men.

I do not want to make this utter farce of a system even easier to exploit.

I should add, I am currently on the mother and baby mental health unit. Needless to say all patients are women and thankfully so are all the staff (bar psychiatrist and psychologist). Incidentally I have never felt so comfortable in this type of environment in my life.

This has been significantly longer than I anticipated. I believe my thoughts are relevant but I shall return to read pp’s in the morning.

Pyjamas on, brain off. Night all.

Redshoeblueshoe · 05/04/2019 00:22

Thesepreciousthings Flowers
I hope every MP reads and understands your heartbreaking post x

Ereshkigal · 05/04/2019 00:23

Your thoughts and feelings are completely relevant to this. Thank you for sharing your experiences Thanks

RepealTheGRA · 05/04/2019 00:32

Thesepreciousthings Flowers

And congratulations on your baby.

FloralBunting · 05/04/2019 00:45

My complete empathy for the women sharing their experiences of MH ward provision. I've mentioned my own before now - raped the first night I was admitted after a psychotic episode, while on all sorts of sedating drugs, by a male patient on the same closed ward, who then spent the rest of my stay following me around to the point that fellow patients and staff were calling him my boyfriend. I was 17.

I get incandescently angry about women being put in this kind of danger, most especially at times when they have every right to expect others to have their safety uppermost in the priorities.

S1naidSucks · 05/04/2019 00:59

These stories are horrendous. I’m so sorry for you women that have been through or are going through this. 💐 As a victim of childhood and adulthood sexual, physical and mental abuse, I know that being on a mixed sex mental health ward or knowing that I could waken up to a Male member of staff standing beside my bed would send me completely over the edge.

I’ve been ‘lucky’ enough to have had only one night stay in a mental health facility and it was entirely female patients and staff, bar the psychotherapist.

If they continue to permit males onto female wards it’s only a matter of time before there’s a suicide as a result. I’m not saying that lightly.

Ereshkigal · 05/04/2019 08:18

Oh god Floral Thanks so many awful experiences on this thread. It is unconscionable that they would do this. So many woke thoughtless idiots who don't have a clue.

Thesepreciousthings · 05/04/2019 08:44

Thank you ladies.

And floral, your story bought a tear to my eye, partly because I cannot comprehend going through that and the subsequent horror but also that as tragic as it is, I was not all that surprised.

I am terrified for all the women whose safety will continue to be compromised in mixed sex MH units at a time when they are most vulnerable.

I just remembered, a few years ago when I was on the mixed sex ward in the local hospital a young trans man was utterly desperate to be admitted to the notoriously volatile single sex men’s ward. Hospital staff turned down his request for her safety. I could recognise his struggle and need for validation but I was relieved that his safety was prioritised.

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