Jewish Chronicle: Could transgender rights infringe upon religious rights?

[TimeLady]

Some in the Orthodox community feel that a proposed legal amendment to expand transgender rights in the UK could threaten their own religious rights*

www.thejc.com/news/news-features/transgender-rights-clash-with-religious-rights-1.470798

I am surprised this has not been highlighted sooner. They need to join the 'party' asap. When will people wake up and see that this will affect every area of society.

Maybe if they get involved the government might listen.

I haven't read the link yet, but Prof Rosa Freedman has written about how she can no longer swim in the Hamptead Ponds. Being Jewish, she can't appear in a swimming costume in front of men who she isn't related to and since TWs are allowed in all 3 ponds, she isn't can't go in any of them. She didn't mention the changing rooms. I'm not a lawyer, but it looks like a possible case to me.

Yes! Somebody here mentioned that she was contacting her local temples, mosques and gurdwaras to ask how they were responding to the consultation.

We've spent what, 30 years plus? in trying to ensure that marginalised groups - especially women from certain religious groups - are able to access society in all ways, including sport and leisure. But suddenly a group led by predominantly middle aged white born males are able to roll all of that back - and nobody appears to give a damn (except for other women).

Trans is obviously top of the pile when it comes to rights, other protected groups aren’t special enough, apparently.

Yes, I am so glad this issue has been raised. Religious leaders really should be considering this very carefully.

I'm sure religious leaders will make some headway on this which is great but it's pretty galling that both TW's beliefs and religious people's beliefs come before women's facts.

I think a lot of women are religious though. I live in a city where a significant number of women are observant Muslims and I would not like to think of their lives being restricted further. The idea put forward by some transactivists that women in this situation should just be 'educated' really doesn't seem to respect how society works. After all if Muslim women should be 'educated' to cope with the presence of men in female gym changing rooms, why shouldn't the rest of us be 'educated' too?

Interesting the suggestion is to "educate" Muslim women, not Muslim men.

I have long suspected that when implications of self-ID registers with the British Jewish community, many of whom already feel battered by recent events emanating from the same stable of activist types, there will be a shit storm.

There are certain tenets of Judaism that are simply non-negotiable for observant Jews, and (biological) sex segregation is a biggie.

Imagine telling Jewish women they need 'educating' out of their religious beliefs.

I know Jewish feminists have explored these beliefs and the origins of sex-based oppressive practices; that doesn't mean that they don't understand the importance of sex-based safe spaces and legal protections for women - far from it.

Let's be realistic about what 'education' means, since it's a bastardised attempt to appropriate disability equality language and approaches.

• Collect together the people whose attitudes you want to change

• Give them lots of information about the experience of the group you would like to be better accepted. Explain the challenges, give the personal perspectives, essentially remove the 'strangeness' and ensure they relate to the person as human like themselves. Explain any unusual and unfamiliar kit or equipment or appearance. Support with feeling confident in what to say/do when faced with unfamiliar experiences, behaviours, sounds, appearance etc.

In disability situations this mostly works, because most of it boils down to: a) I've never seen this before, I don't understand it and it's alarming or upsetting b) I don't know what to say or do and I feel bad for the person.

This is failing to work, because the people protesting self ID aren't lacking in experience, understanding or empathy with trans people as a group, and these are not the issues that are causing concern.

So 'education' looks like 'tell you all about trans people and how hard life is for them' with some personalised stories. The audience goes yes, we know, we've read plenty of personal articles, we have trans friends, some of us are transsexual/LGBT ourselves, now would you address the real, actual, factual issues here about conflicting rights, sexism, homophobia and male violence?

You can 'educate' all you want about 'the GRA doesn't threaten women's rights' and 'male violence doesn't really exist' and 'NATALT', the facts are not with those arguments.

At that point, all that's left is #nodebate, name calling and threats, plus informing you that if you do not conform to rightthink it is right and just that you no longer have access to public spaces.

I mentioned this on Twitter once. I was told be someone thry don't give a shit about "stupid people." I did point out there was a lot wrong with that argument snd that it was bigoted but to no avail.

Why are Jewish people complaining about trans people, when Judaism was one of the first religions to talk about trans people in the first place?

ZOMBIE THREAD FROM 2018

Zombie thread it may be, but it's still an interesting one because it hasn't been addressed, especially in relation to the big, taxpayer-subsidised public institutions that now have mixed sex toilets, and shops and gyms and leisure centres that have mixed sex changing rooms.

What I think needs to be stressed is that the progressive arm of Judaism (Reform, Masorti, Reconstructionist) are very pro-trans.

It's the Ultra-Orthodox and some Modern Orthodox who are against it, mainly because of rules governing separation of the sexes.

But it isn't black and white. Recently at an Orthodox synagogue in my city there was a "scandal" whereby a transwoman was counted as a man to make up the compulsory minyan (the ten adult Jewish men required for a prayer service). This proves that transpeople are welcome at orthodox synagogues, but will be recognised as their biological sex.

Recent Scotgov consultation on GRR vaguely brushed upon this, as I think Kate Colemen of KPSS is Jewish and mentioned the issue. There was, I believe, a meeting with a Muslim women's group that discussed the same issues.

Whether these women are going to have their rights and protected characteristics brushed aside as less important than those of males with other protected characteristics?

Well, that would only happen in a country with deep-seated institutionalised misogyny, wouldn't it?

JC in recent years has had a lot to say about freedom of speech and cancel culture. https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/all/how-britain's-young-academics-became-so-deeply-radicalised-1.521496?reloadTime=1651622400011, for example. We know first hand what happens to people who are not allowed to express opinions contrary to mainstream.

Although many of the 'modern', more liberal streams of Judaism are pro-trans (bizarrely, IMO) it's not a subject that has appeared much in the JC. I'm not a regular reader, so may have missed mentions of it, by I don't recall any articles mentioning it. I wouldn't be surprised if they are steering clear of trans issues because of the possibility of a hostile reaction spilling into vicious anti-Semitism.

Well of course. Have they only just realised?

Whether these women are going to have their rights and protected characteristics brushed aside as less important than those of males with other protected characteristics?

Yes, I think so. Given that this thread is from almost 4 years ago and there hasn't been an uproar about this, it seems that are either ignoring it or don't care.

I always thought it interesting that religion was one of the few exemptions to the GRA (so women couldn't identify into a privileged position)when it was first introduced. It showed that religious organisations knew the implications of this, and protected their own interests. After that, they don't care if women are thrown under the bus.

Depressing, isn't it? The fact is that most religions are just as misogynist as the societies they spring from.

I always thought it interesting that religion was one of the few exemptions to the GRA (so women couldn't identify into a privileged position) when it was first introduced. It showed that religious organisations knew the implications of this, and protected their own interests. After that, they don't care if women are thrown under the bus.

The other main exemption to the GRA of course is in hereditary privilege - a woman can't identify as male and then claim a right over her younger brother to inherit a title. Odd that.

Podcast here about how gender ideology affects Muslim women:

%27sRightsNetwork

"Dayan YY Lichtenstein"

Are people stating their chromosomes now?

His initials. Dayan is his title. His name is Yisroel Yaakov Lichtenstein.

Two main methods of booting a member of the Labour Party are antisemitism and transphobia.

Both exist of course , especially in the Conservative Party.