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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Finally, a balanced overview article in the Guardian...

121 replies

MacaroonMama · 10/05/2018 07:14

The Gender Recognition Act is controversial – can a path to common ground be found? - the guardian

Need to do breakfast! But this is mostly v balanced and optimistic Smile

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Original poster
MacaroonMama · 10/05/2018 07:15

Oh damn, can’t link, agh sorry!

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RooKangaroo · 10/05/2018 07:21

Agreed. I think she's written it quite sympathetically to both sides, and it feels very practical and solution-oriented rather than pointing the finger.

A good introductory piece that will hopefully go some way to changing minds.

picklemepopcorn · 10/05/2018 07:25

I came to see if anyone had shared it yet. Is anyone aware of extremely right wing men on the fringes of gender critical feminism?

IrenetheQuaint · 10/05/2018 07:27

Yes, I liked this too.

There are quite a few right-wingers/hardline Christian groups opposed to self ID.

hackmum · 10/05/2018 07:38

Interestingly, she seems to have changed her mind, at least a little bit - this is very different from the last piece she wrote.

IHATEPeppaPig · 10/05/2018 07:43

I really liked this - it echos my own thoughts on the debate. I'm honestly torn by my liberal heart and my gender critical brain.

I hate that I'm scared to express my concerns and my gender critical views. I'm far from transphobic and desperately don't want people who are trans to suffer any kind of discrimination but with the influx of TRAs it seems that you have to choose a side and I'm always going to be on the side of women.

busyboysmum · 10/05/2018 07:49

I thought it was a very good article. I do hope that we can find a way forward that protects the rights of everybody.

Angryresister · 10/05/2018 07:59

Not bad, but there is no link made with the men's rights activists and TRAs particular brand of misogyny and toxic masculinity . The basic problem is that we are being forced to accept that men can change sex and become women. We will not accept this.

53rdWay · 10/05/2018 08:09

Is anyone aware of extremely right wing men on the fringes of gender critical feminism?

I don’t think quite on the fringes of feminism, but yes in that I’ve seen men like Jordan Peterson getting quoted and linked to before.

I’m glad to see a more balanced and detailed article in the Guardian. I don’t think the “I’m sure we could all get along if we sat down and listened to each other” approach will get much traction in the current #nodebate climate, but at least it’s better than getting Owen Jones to mansplain gender to us all again.

nauticant · 10/05/2018 08:10

It's much better than the last dismal effort from Hinsliff but contains stuff like this:

Channel 4 has been exploring the idea that gender identity is a spectrum – stretching from non-binary (identifying with neither gender), to trans, to gay, to a dizzying number of other possibilities

Gay isn't a "gender identity". But to say so is a back door to invite the argument that same sex attraction is "transphobic".

picklemepopcorn · 10/05/2018 08:14

Oh yes, RW Christians. They aren't very vocal in the uk, from what I can tell. And they aren't feminists! I'd forgotten about Jordan Peterson, too.

ArcheryAnnie · 10/05/2018 08:19

It is probably the best Guardian article I've seen for a while.

I think Clara Barker is beginning to try to understand, which is a start, but there's an argument that Barker is using which I see all the time, and which needs questioning:

“It is held against me that ‘you were raised with male privilege’, but actually I was beaten up all the time for being effeminate,’” says Clara Barker, a trans scientist at the University of Oxford, who also leads voluntary work with LGBT young people. “Because I was trans I was severely depressed, I was bullied in my workplace, so it’s like, ‘What privilege is that?’”

Just because you had a shitty time as a boy and a man, and experienced homophobia, that doesn't mean all your male privilege is negated. You still have male privilege, just as, say, while people who were born into poor families still have white privilege, however shitty a time they had growing up. Being disprivileged on one axis doesn't magically remove your privilege on another.

picklemepopcorn · 10/05/2018 08:23

I thought exactly that, Annie. But couldn't express it properly.

TerfinUSA · 10/05/2018 08:25

Jordan Peterson is not extremely right wing, he is right of centre, and he doesn't really care about transgender from what I can see, it's just he doesn't want to be told what to say.

He's not some sort of 'stone them to death' religious type, I think it's quite incidental to what he believes, it's just TRAs like to make EVERYTHING about them, as if he was somehow some sort of full-time anti-trans activist. Their mission is to picket and silence anyone who has ever said anything vaguely critical. That's why he attracts their attention. It's not about HIS beliefs, it's their attempt to violently silence anyone who disagrees.

53rdWay · 10/05/2018 08:27

He's not some sort of 'stone them to death' religious type

No, he’s another kind of right-winger. They come in different varieties.

IrenetheQuaint · 10/05/2018 08:30

I'd prefer a more nuanced argument where we can point out specific ways in which a trans woman like Clara may have benefited from male privilege, but where we also acknowledge that growing up as an effeminate boy can be absolutely horrible and that there are many aspects of male privilege which are only really enjoyed by gender-conforming men.

ArcheryAnnie · 10/05/2018 08:31

There are some right-wing men who are trying to elbow their way in, but we are not responsible for them, and they don't speak for us. These right-wing men don't like us, don't agree with us on almost everything else, they are not on our side, and they are just jumping on the bandwagon because one aspect of it - the right to discuss matters of public policy without fear - aligns with theirs.

And if it's claimed that we are responsible for them, well, I presume the TRAs will mention their responsibility to, eg, the Iranian regime, who share their rush to trans gay people....

ArcheryAnnie · 10/05/2018 08:33

Agreed, Irene, but that's covered by homophobia, surely? The men bullying Barker would not have given a shit whether Barker is trans or gay, they'd have just seen a "sissie" and put the boot in.

AlphaNumericalSequence · 10/05/2018 08:35

I was very relieved to read this balanced and informative piece this morning. I have felt very torn and distressed by the current debate, which puts groups at one another's throats that I would formerly have regarded as allies.

I think that the implacable divisions that have arisen are at least as much the consequence of the dynamics of online debate as they are of any profound conflict on interest between feminism and issues related to transgender. Right across society groups of all sorts have been sucked into similarly implacable divisions, fueled by online dynamics. And this emnity has often paved the way for a conservative backlash -- cf Trump who was pretty much a social media creation, and is now used by malign interests to push forward various wicked agendas.
We need to find common ground. Progressive politics needs solidarity.

TerfinUSA · 10/05/2018 08:37

"No, he’s another kind of right-winger. They come in different varieties."

Right. I'm just pointing out that he doesn't have beliefs underpinned by religious texts that say homosexuals should be put to death or something.

The point here is not whether somebody is right wing or not, but that if someone's beliefs are predicated on a religious text that says something is an abomination, then people are going to reject them outright.

Religious arguments against things are no longer taken seriously, in most of the West.

Latinista · 10/05/2018 08:38

It was a good article on the whole, but to me it fell down at the end and overall with ultimately emphasis on trans rather than women’s experience. Suggesting that solutions like “sealed cubicles, locks and other design features may go a long way to avoid any anticipated friction” do nothing to resolve tension over erasure and the demise of women-only spaces. Reducing protected spaces to the level of a toilet cubicle is really not good enough.

BeyondParody · 10/05/2018 08:41

Stonewalls director of campaigns name is Twocock!!

This was my favourite bit...
"...Sophie Walker, leader of the Women’s Equality Party, who was torn apart over her party’s trans-inclusive stance in one notable Mumsnet webchat"

I think that's the first time the WEP problems have made MSM news?

IrenetheQuaint · 10/05/2018 08:49

Annie - yes, it's partly homophobia, but it's also contempt for men who don't conform to gender norms. Straight men who don't conform suffer badly from male bullying too. (And life as a woman who doesn't conform with gender norms can be hard too, as many on this board will know.) We should stand with LGBT campaigners (the saner ones - which is most of them, actually) on this issue.

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 10/05/2018 09:05

I thought it was quite well balanced.
I do although hate the notion that being gay is a gender identity.

My sexuality does not put me on a bloody gender spectrum. This is dangerous.