Transgender child on R4 World at One

[Poppyred85]

Following on from a report about waiting lists to attend GID clinic, there was an interview of a 10 year old transgirl and her mother. I really don’t know what to make of it. Both the child and the mother sound to be genuinely struggling with this and I found it incredibly sad to listen to the story of her child self harming after identifying as a girl. Her mother commented that she wasn’t looking for her child to start on blockers or surgery but felt she needed psychological support and how lacking this was. Clearly the mother was doing her best but I couldn’t help but feel uneasy listening to why the child felt they were really a girl and the whole “born in the wrong body” narrative. From the sounds of things came across the term transgender because it was used as an insult by her classmates but had previously told her mother she has the heart of a girl. I thought the response from the specialist after the interview was quite measured.
It’s on now so not on Iplayer yet.

Being abandoned by CAMHS is not confined to transgender children.

If only the mum had told him that it was ok for him to wear the sparkly glittery shoes, so silly that he has to identify as transgender in order to wear sparkly clothes. The transgender label was put on him by other children, it really is a social contagion.

I agree that Caahms are shit sometimes. (personal experience)

I couldn’t help but feel uneasy listening to why the child felt they were really a girl and the whole “born in the wrong body” narrative

The mother was being supported by Mermaids so obviously had to voice the belief that her son was a girl and that they had been born in the wrong body. One positive thing about the discussion was that it was about the lack of counselling support for children at the beginning of things. More of that (so long as it wouldn't be a default affirmation approach) would be helpful.

Agree with Carroty.

It’s tempting to feel sympathy with the hand-wringing parents but if they’d just had any common sense (and not listened to the frankly bonkers trans activist oddballs) they’d have been both briskly “You’re a boy darling. That’s that” and cheerily encouraging him to like/wear/play with whatever he likes.

I'm speaking from bitter personal experience too Susan :(

I’m pretty sure parents don’t just say ‘Yup, my child is transgender’ at the first sight of the word. I’m also pretty sure they must have tried the ‘briskly brush it away’ approach too?

I feel sorry for any parent trying to raise a trans child in the current climate. It must be really difficult reading all the comments from strangers who don’t know your child or their history.

The specialist interviewed was Dr Polly Carmichael from The Tavistock clinic.

There was another parent on here saying that even after having an appointment at the Tavistock and being prescribed puberty blockers they were just left to their own devices. So zero counselling input during the time "bought" by suspending puberty.

Yes it also does apply to lots of kids struggling with all aspects of their mental health.

I thought the mum was very measured actually, she said she was looking for support in helping her child deal with certain situations, psychological help, maybe CBT etc.

But this whole - you can't wear those shoes, they are for girls.

The expert witness did say that there was no way of knowing how many of these kids went on to be trans, but the issue was lack of access to services.

In my work as a psychologist I work with lots of GNC children and children struggling with their gender identity. For some of those children, the issues are a lot more complex than challenging gender stereotypes.
I have met lots of parents who have adopted sensible approaches (including gender critical approaches) and despite this, their children experience distress about their sex and identity.
For those children who are gender non conforming, approaches that confirm that they can express themselves how they like whilst remaining a boy or a girl are affirming and helpful. Telling a child who is dysphoric that they are being silly or ignoring their distress is not helpful.
I am seeing an increasing number of posts on this board that seem to reduce a complex and real phenomena to bad parenting. I don't think this is helpful of many fronts.

RedHoodGirl
I feel sorry for any parent trying to raise a trans child in the current climate.
What do you mean by a 'trans child'? If a child thinks that they are the opposite sex, do you think that means they are 'trans'? Or does it just mean that they are having difficulty in navigating a world full of outdated and regressive gender stereotypes?

What struck me was that the child said “I feel like a girl sometimes”. Ok so that means he obviously felt like a boy sometimes too. So why does he need to change? Why can’t he wear pink sparkly shoes?

I just can’t get over all the gender bollocks. I hear this word tens of times a day. It’s used by the Government and the media. What happened to it being a social construct?

Surely a lot of ‘trans’ is just personality, why can’t boys wear dresses and girl shave their hair without it being made into something other than personal choices

The issue of lack of resources was interestingly also raised by Dr Helen Webberley (Gender GP) in an article posted yesterday.

Dr Webberley's article also offers explanation to some of the Daily Mail's articles published this weekend & explanation of why young people are buying hormones via the internet.
gendergp.co.uk/why-are-trans-teenagers-resorting-to-diy-trans-pills-from-cowboy-chemists/

Discussed here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228409-DM-Article-NHS-sex-change-drugs-are-putting-hundreds-of-children-at-risk-each-year-warns-top-doctor
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228447-Transing-children
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228409-DM-Article-NHS-sex-change-drugs-are-putting-hundreds-of-children-at-risk-each-year-warns-top-doctor

I also heard this, and thought it was very sad. I have every sympathy for parents and children going through this, especially with regards to the delays in accessing mental health support.

But it also really troubles me to hear the same threads of overly-restrictive gender roles and body/soul ideology yet again used as justification (even in the vaguest sense) of why a young child is or may be transgender.

Of two early examples of the child's disconnection from their birth sex, one was that they wanted to wear sparkly shoes (and were told not to). I feel like I've heard this type of thing so many times (including stuff like 'as soon as you'd put a bow on her hair, she'd just rip it straight off' about a toddler), and I don't understand why it should be presented as anything remotely significant. That it should be given as one of the primary examples is troubling. I appreciate that parents may feel pressured to produce examples, in retrospect, of dysphoria, but all it really shows is that the child wanted to contravene the most minor of gender rules (sparkle is for girls) and was firmly told they couldn't.

And it was very sad hearing the child say 'god made a mistake' with her body, and that she had a girl's heart - sad that she should think that at all, and sad that noone's pointing out that it's ideology, not fact.

I appreciate it's a conventional religious belief, but I can't see how it's healthy for any child to believe their physical form has been created and gifted to them by a third party, and that their soul/heart has been decanted into this body via a fallible process where mistakes may sometimes be made. I wish we could tell kids that their body is their body; that it's beyond the question of mistakes and creators, that it simply exists and they're free to use, modify, clothe and decorate it as they see fit.

conventional religious belief of a soul (whatever that is) , maybe, but corrupted to say that the body is wrong and God made a mistake rather than wonderfully made in the image of God (both male and female)

people corrupt religious beliefs/ or non belief/ science to support their own agender, often tricking others into thinking they are legitimate by certain key words and phrases.

MsBeaujangles
For those children who are gender non conforming, approaches that confirm that they can express themselves how they like whilst remaining a boy or a girl are affirming and helpful. Telling a child who is dysphoric that they are being silly or ignoring their distress is not helpful.

Clearly as a professional working in this area you have ways of distinguishing between dysphoric and non-dysphoric children, all of whom may be similarly distressed, but in media pieces like this, the description of 'being trans' is always about stereotypes.

Is there a simple way to describe the symptoms of a dysphoric child to distinguish them from a gender non-conforming child? I have never heard it on a piece like this, so I assume that even if the child is dysphoric, it is easier to describe what they are going through using stereotypes.

One of the problems about making everything about stereotypes is that it encourages social contagion. Gender non-conforming children who hear about similar children being diagnosed with dysphoria assume that they are the same. The same effect can happen with their parents - with very young children it will be the parents who are affected rather than the children.

On here, you almost see the opposite effect. People here are generally well aware of social contagion, and are aware that gender dysphoria is real, but very rare, so the default assumption is that the child is probably not dysphoric. I have never seen anyone be dismissive of a parent who has posted here with concerns about their own child, though.

My major concern is how to differentiate between the disconnect with their body or the disconnect with their gender stereotypes/preferences. How could a child be able to communicate between the two especially when the treatments are completely different. I know I would of opted out of puberty at the age of 11 if given the chance and I use to compress my breast through disgust but not because I wanted to be a boy but because I was not ready to be a woman.

the problem though is your average parent can not tell the bloody difference and can not access any support to find out.

it works with other conditions as well. two year wait for one thing, 6 months wait for another and no sodding concrete advice from drs as how to bloody help in the mean time.

the failure of someone to put any bloody money in the sytem is failing children with many, many different condtions.

Telling a child who is dysphoric that they are being silly or ignoring their distress is not helpful.
I am seeing an increasing number of posts on this board that seem to reduce a complex and real phenomena to bad parenting. I don't think this is helpful of many fronts.

The widening of the definition of 'transgender' to include many things outside specific dysphoria is a big contributor to this.

@oldcrone I think one of the main problems with any sort of representation of trans kids in a short radio segment / magazine article / tv programme, is that the concept of gender dysphoria must be incredibly difficult to communicate without using some sort of ‘stereotype’? How does a child communicate how they feel when they haven’t yet learned the language to describe it? Maybe through ‘emulating’ the clothing and behaviours of the gender they identify with? Yes, gender stereotypes are bad, but if that’s the only way kids have to communicate their feelings, surely they shouldn’t be ignored? I’m not saying that any child who wants to wear glittery shoes should be called ‘trans’, but surely that’s then where the ‘consistent, insistent, persistent’ monitoring approach comes from? It weeds out those kids who are trans, from those who are gender non-conforming / questioning.

I think the problem is the term 'trans' is just all too encompassing. I tend to agree that being 'trans' isn't an issue for mental health professionals where trans relates to how people want to express themselves or how they make sense of their inner feelings. I think there is a mental health element when distress is experienced in relation to one's sexed body.

From the point of mental health and wellbeing, so long as children are 'doing well' (eating and sleeping well, socialising, learning, growing, having hobbies and interests etc.) then little concern needs to be given to their preferences and how they like to express themselves.

When children experience distress and anxiety about their sexed bodies, and this persists, then this can be an indicator that intervention might be a good idea. I do think parents are often pretty good at recognising when help is needed. Some do jump the gun a bit (those for whom the above about 'doing well' applies, but their child is GNC or talks about being or wanting to be of the opposite sex).

This dilemma is similar, in some ways, to trying to determine whether you have an anxious child or a child with an anxiety disorder; a child whose mood is often low and one suffering from depression.

These things are hard to navigate.

When it comes to gender identity issues, professionals working in the field are also struggling because there just isn't a strong enough evidence base to guide intervention. I know that people are condemning of using children as guinea-pigs, it is not as if they are being invited in so experiments can take place. The professionals are being presented with very distressed children and young people and trying to find the best ways forward to support them.

As I have said before, I haven't come across any professionals being hung-ho about physical intervention. All very much push a watchful, waiting approach. Though this is often met with objection by the children, young people and their parents.

I honestly don't believe there is any such thing as a "trans child".

There are many, many gender nonconforming children (and I think ALL children are gender nonconforming at some point, or to some degree), and there are parents who are doing their best to navigate this, and there is an entire construct of societal pressure about gender performance, and there is now a whole extra layer of dangerous, toxis "discourse", fuelled by both the well-meaning and the TRAs, which says gender nonconforming children are "really" the opposite sex. And then there's all the entirely usual - if distressing - mental health crises that children and adolescents are subject to, and which leaves them and their parents vulnerable to the prospect of straighforward explanations and fixes. And then there's the prospect of the parents and children being elevated above the crowd, turning into special, brave parents and special, brave children.

Wait until they've grown and done a bit of exploration for themselves as adults before you slap a label on them.