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(22 Posts)
furiousandmad Sun 15-Oct-17 07:00:04

Hi all, inspired by the Harvey Weinstein thread, I've started a new FB page. It's very basic at the moment and will need a lot of work but the aim is to make men equal partners in the fight against male violence against women instead of leaving it to women to solve. This is the page

Knusper Sun 15-Oct-17 08:02:09

There are some excellent links on that FB page.

Thank you for doing this.

Datun Sun 15-Oct-17 08:44:16


I've just read it. Excellent. I really hope it catches fire.

furiousandmad Sun 15-Oct-17 13:45:28

Thank you both! Going to get a proper logo designed, and think about some short and long term aims.

Longer term getting some speakers into schools and workplaces, making some workplace info packs themed around Xmas, Xmas parties, calling out lecherous drunk males and calling out rape culture in general.

Short term, will probably have to start with just online stuff and grow it from there. Ideas welcome!

Datun Sun 15-Oct-17 14:27:38

I would have to think about ideas. However, when my son was given a talk at school about consent, he came home feeling very disgruntled as though all boys had been called rapists.

We had a long talk and he gets it now. However, that was his initial reaction. It's incredibly common. Defence mode.

Sometimes, exercises that produce a surprising, yet irrefutable result is the eye-opener.

I don't have any specific ideas, but gender expectations, which are constantly reinforced, is definitely part of it. Boys must be masculine girls must be feminine.

That means boys have to be strong, powerful, competitive, girls have to be compliant, pretty, and supportive/willing.

Did you see the BBC no more boys and girls? By age seven the girls had low self-esteem and the boys could only express one emotion, which was anger. The producer connected it directly to prison statistics on violent crime and sexual crime.

Sorry if you already know all this and I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, as it were.

RetroTardigrade Sun 15-Oct-17 20:46:24

That’s fantastic, lots of links to help me better articulate how I feel about passive good guys. Thanks for your fury and work.

Mantegnaria Tue 17-Oct-17 00:38:48

Seems very unnecessary. Fury never solves problems.

Datun Tue 17-Oct-17 10:27:56

I’d have to disagree with that.

Fury is the right and appropriate reaction to men’s abuse of women.

If you’re not furious, you’re not getting it.

buckeejit Tue 17-Oct-17 10:35:43

I shared this yesterday which I thought was well put

hipsterfun Tue 17-Oct-17 10:39:09

Yep, as the saying goes: If you’re not pissed off, you’re not paying attention.

Datun Tue 17-Oct-17 11:07:18


That’s excellent distinction. I’ve come to realise that language and the way things are framed is crucial.

Blanchefleur Tue 17-Oct-17 11:19:06

Yes, I agree at what a difference language can make. Just look at how effective the word 'transphobia' is, for example, whereas 'misogyny' is not used nearly as often, and doesn't appear to be something that 'the general public' are anxious NOT to be seen as. Do we need a new word for misogyny, ending with -phobia, to make people pay attention?

BigDeskBob Tue 17-Oct-17 11:40:29

Its not the word. Its who is saying it. "Transphobia" is believed because its men saying it. Men also have the power and influence to make people understand it and make it powerful.

pigsknickers Tue 17-Oct-17 12:21:33

Fury is the right and appropriate reaction to men's abuse of women hell yes. It's an outrage and if any other group in society were being subjected to abuse on this scale, they'd have taken to the streets long ago (and I don't mean in the walking with placards sense).
I was listening to Hilary Clinton on Woman's Hour earlier, and heard her discuss how she had prepared scrupulously for the live debates with Trump, because she couldn't get angry - a woman's anger is unacceptable. Whatever you think of her politics, that must have taken a degree of self-composure that I know I would be incapable of.

Fairyflaps Tue 17-Oct-17 12:37:31

There's another Jackson Katz quote I saw posted (I notice you've got his TED talk on your page.):

“I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other. Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.' Then I ask women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine. Here are some of their answers: Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”

There are UK educators doing similar work. A Call to Men for one.

Datun Tue 17-Oct-17 12:47:16

That’s brilliant Fairyflaps.

That one question says it all.

Blanchefleur Tue 17-Oct-17 13:34:13

"Transphobia" is believed because its men saying it.

That's very true, Bob, yet men also have the option to say that these accusations and TRA demands are ridiculous, with the same expectation of being listened to, and the same power to implement policy. Yet, by and large, they don't.

The very word 'transphobia' (and the adding the T to LGB) echos 'homophobia', so has the connotations of being wrong, regressive, bigoted etc, hence so much blind acceptance and desperation not to appear 'transphobic'. Therefore 'TERFs' are silenced.

We don't see the same thing around accusations of misogyny. Misogyny simply isn't something that people seem bothered about being accused of (and I'm not convinced that everyone would even know what it meant anyway).

I'm not trying to derail the thread into a trans one, here - it just seemed a striking example of the power of language to spark a reaction. On the same note, Fury against male violence is good, as it names the aggressor, the act and the expected reaction.

ocelot41 Wed 18-Oct-17 00:05:53

I love your FB post! I don't know how many men would be willing to sign up but worth a try. Since discussing MeToo on my FB site there has been a tonne of responses from women, and zip from men. I wrote a post asking my male friends how they were processing what they had found out through the campaign and got some mighty weird responses. One friend talked at length about how he thought that sexual assault had its roots in men's biological drive to shag as many women as possible and women needed to understand this better. Although he stressed it wasn't an excuse I was still pretty flabbergasted. A couple of other friends rang to say they were upset that I had asked them for a response and that I needed to understand how upsetting it was for them to be grouped with harassers and rapists (I did no such thing). Only one man has posted anything indicating he 'got it'. And I work in a field relating to social justice and activism. I am horrified - it's like, and these are the GOOD guys???

MrsTerryPratchett Wed 18-Oct-17 00:46:06

Following from @buckeejit's quote, where are the statistics on how many men are committing these offences? Because people seem intent on pretending that it is one rapist assaulting thousands of women, one man who has 100s of relationships in order to explain DV rates and one man doing the rounds of every building site and pub harassing women.

How many men are child abusers, rapists, DV perpetrators and just plain awful online and in person? What proportion?

Datun Wed 18-Oct-17 00:49:55

Well, when they can get away with it for the best part of 30 years, God knows how many there are.

Knusper Wed 18-Oct-17 06:28:40

God that's horrifying ocelot.

I too would be interested in stats on male offending MrsTP.

Fairyflaps getting older has been a revelation. I love feeling suddenly invisible and love the relative freedom from sexual harassment. But I'm alternately angered and fascinated by the thought that this is how men feel their entire lives.

ocelot41 Wed 18-Oct-17 07:05:18

Knusper - yes, yes and YES!

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