Trans Understanding Help

[Itsallveryconfusing]

Hello.

Please be gentle as I'm not very knowledgeable about this but I'm trying to learn.

My eyes have been opened due to the recent threads like the I am Spartacus ones. I have always been very liberal and believed that someone can be born in the wrong body when it comes to makes feeling like a woman etc. I've come to see that gender is more a social concept.

I've been speaking with DH about this who, again, is very liberal and believes in equality and is pro women rights, although his workplace is very male orientated. He's not afraid to argue against the party line that women are weaker emotionally etc. His view on trans is very much live and let live he firmly believes that if someone wants to identify as female or male then they should be allowed to, as it must be awful to feel trapped. He was shocked that my view is changing and that my views are more in standing with hard right wingers who look at equality is a dirty word.

Sorry for the essay but I'm struggling with what I know is correct in my head with the concept that people should be happy and if that makes them happy then I should respect.

[Itsallveryconfusing]

I don't even know what I'm expecting people to say, sorry it's all very garbled

[LumpySpacedPrincess]

Laws are being changed that will affect all women and it's okay to stand up and point out that's a bad thing. I'm a wooly liberal and I don't give a monkeys about the clothes people wear or the names they want to be called. I do care about the names that I am called and I don't like it when people tell me I have to change the words I use to describe myself, that's not on and it's bullying.

[PorridgeHoneyCake]

There is a very informative video blog on the thread that inspired the I am Spartacus one that neatly sums up a lot of the issues.

[titchy]

What they said.

I'm also a woolly live and let live leftie. But not at the expense of others.

If George wants to wear dresses and tell everyone he's now Georgina, then lovely, good for Georgina. Happy to continue to have lunch, share makeup tips with Georgina etc etc and delighted they are now so much happier than they have been in the past. Genuinely.

But if Georgina wants access to rape crisis centres, to compete at the Olympics in female races or accuse Rachel the lesbian of being phobic because she doesn't want to have sex with Georgina's penis then I'm afraid Georgina can fuck right off.

[thedogstinks]

I never really swallowed the trans rhetoric, but I thought I should choke down my gut reaction. I slowly came to realise that this was because I am generally a leftie leaning liberal who feels people should be free to live the way they want, and be happy, and how awful it must be for them...wrong body...subjected to violence...etc etc.

Then I began to realise the wider ramifications. Georgina above ^ that titchy refers to? In some countries he can legitimately claim women's board positions, scholarships, membership of lesbian groups and access to 'women only' gatherings, and government contracts because he is recognised as a woman, not as the man he is.

In Canada, there's a push to change the terminology used in the labour wards from 'mother' and 'woman' to 'person in labour,' or labouring person. Why? Because men can give birth too!

Let's not start with Caitlyn Jenner and his 'woman of the year' award.

[Stopyourhavering]

I'm trying to get my head round all this terminology too...especially since my dd ex bf decided he wanted to be polygamous and date trans and binary people......my dd is now very confused and upset as she has always identified as heterosexual
What I don't like is the bullying associated with all these gender issues

[MermaidMartian]

I feel really sorry for trans-people. I've found all the vicious attacks I've read on Mumsnet today really shocking. These poor people are just trying to deal with not being abused and murdered on a daily basis, they've got it tough enough without all this awful bullying. We should all be working together not excluding people who could help us reach our common goals.

[thedogstinks]

translation: he wants to sleep around a bit, he might be gay or bi. There is nothing to be confused about.

Getting your heart broken is not nice. I hope she is ok.

[thedogstinks]

What common goals would they be, Mermaid?

[DollyBarton]

I think she means the common goals of living a happy life, treated equally and hopefully finding someone or some people in life you can love and be loved by.

[DollyBarton]

But society makes sure that those things are bloody difficult for some people.

[MermaidMartian]

Like equal protection for women under the law if they are victims of rape, assault, stalking etc. Protection against discrimination in the workplace. Being recognised as people and not objectified by men based on what we look like. There's probably a lot of other things trans-women and women have in common but people just get so defensive and angry.

[DollyBarton]

I'm with you on this Mermaid.

Everyone thinks they're a liberal until someone wants the same as what they have.

[MermaidMartian]

Thank you Dolly, yes those are our common goals too, and I would never want to make achieving those goals harder for anyone by making assumptions and being judgmental.

[Hockeydude]

I feel really sorry for people who have been born in the wrong body. It seems like there are two issues.

The first issue is the support/acceptance/transitioning for those who need that and most fair minded and decent people are in favour of that.

However the second issue is people who aren't actually trans, don't feel they're in the wrong body but do see the opportunity to commit crimes by saying they are trans. Which makes life even more difficult for trans people. There was a thread today linking to a story which started with the headline along the lines of beautician refuses to serve trans customer. But actually, the "customer" was a stalker who was using the beauty excuse to get into a room alone with the beauty therapist person being stalked.

I don't like some of the stuff I've read on mumsnet about trans women essentially making things worse for women. Your "average" trans woman is a person who needs support and acceptance (and wishes no harm to women's rights) and that is compromised by some men who decide to call themselves trans in order to get things that are for women, like the women's Olympic medals etc or get access to women that they would not otherwise have.

[TheMagicToyshop]

As you are thinking about your position on this, I'd just like to suggest that you do a range of research outside of Mumsnet. There is quite a consensus on here to the extent that people who like me don't agree (and in fact find a lot of the statements disturbingly transphobic) tend to avoid posting. So don't use this forum as your one source of info.

[MermaidMartian]

Yeah the Hockeydude, people seem to think you can just decide that you're trans on the day you get a prison sentence and insist you get put in with the women, when it doesn't work like that at all. You would need a Gender Recognition Certificate that would require you to have been diagnosed by a doctor and to have lived as that gender for two years. There seems to be so much fear based on simple misunderstanding, such a shame to be afraid for no reason.

[MermaidMartian]

I was nervous about posting too, TheMagicToyshop. That's very good advice as well.

[DollyBarton]

Trans women should not be discriminated against because of men posing to be trans women. And it's those men that are the basis of many of the discriminatory posts on this issue above.

[TheCrowFromBelow]

I largeky share you husbands view, as long as it's reciprocated by the teams community.
Increasingly it seems that bigoted views within that community are coming to the fore.
The views of a person like Ada Wells are wholly unacceptable no matter how they identify.

[Lancelottie]

You currently need a gender recognition certificate that requires you to have lived as that gender' for two years (not sure I've ever 'lived as a gender' myself, but there you go).

Proposals to look at this act again, and make it possible to just rock up and declare oneself female, are what are worrying otherwise normal, kindly, sympathetic people. It's very well worth examining what there is to lose as well as gain from such changes.

[sentia]

I think this video is a helpful overview (linked on several of the ongoing threads about the Ada Wells fallout and mentioned above).

I also think this article is helpful in articulating how a gender spectrum concept has some unintended consequences that are damaging for women.

The trend toward primacy of gender (what's in your head re how you identify with gender) over sex (biology) has MASSIVE implications for women's rights. It is not consequence free to allow people to self-determine whether they are male or female. Hence the problem with live and let live as an approach.

[venusinscorpio]

Mermaid. There is a big push from transactivists and lobbying groups to do away with the GRC and move towards self-determination as is already the case in other countries. Which will mean that literally any man can declare that they are a woman. Women won't be able to tell a man who's got his dick out in the ladies' changing room to get out, because no one can say he isn't trans. Those restrictions you mention would no longer apply. I despair of how ill-informed and ignorant some people are, and how prepared they are to throw women under the bus.

[PoisonWitch]

Mermaid. Like equal protection for women under the law if they are victims of rape, assault, stalking etc. Protection against discrimination in the workplace. Being recognised as people and not objectified by men based on what we look like.

All of those things are very worthy goals. I want those things for women and trans people and men. Men already have those things. Women have those things in this country notionally but not in practice much of the time. Transwomen suffer discrimination but in a different way to women because they are not women. They are punished by the patriarchy for refusing to follow the prescriptions for their sex and identifying with the inferior sex.

Trans people need rights and protection but not at the cost of women. Allowing transwomen (men) into places/positions intended for women harms women. Not allowing women the language to name the oppression of our sex harms women.

I want trans people to be seen as equal. That does not mean treating them the same as women and that does not mean redefining woman or denying biological facts.

[venusinscorpio]

And personally I think most people don't post as they don't actually have a coherent argument why trans women are women.