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Drop out rare PGCE anyone know?

(60 Posts)
PGCEwoes Sun 12-Nov-17 11:46:33

We’ve lost 12% so far, all officially state they want to “spend time with their families” but unofficially say they feel demoralised unsupported and struggling with the course work load expectations.

PGCEwoes Sun 12-Nov-17 11:47:31

Rate not rare!

wowbutter Sun 12-Nov-17 11:48:28

I thought that was pretty normal, as is the drop out rate in the NQT year.

PGCEwoes Sun 12-Nov-17 11:51:29

All mature students/career changers by the way.

Balfe Sun 12-Nov-17 12:56:33

For some reason 40% sticks in my head. I remember the cohort noticeably decreasing every time we returned from placement.

CauliflowerSqueeze Sun 12-Nov-17 13:02:47

There’s a massive drop out at pgce. It carries on haemorrhaging until people have passed the 5 year mark then stabilises a bit.

purpleleotard Sun 12-Nov-17 13:11:06

I tried to transition from teaching in FE to secondary by doing a PGCE. Utterly hated it.
The school placement for two weeks at the start of the year was terrible. I lasted one week more.
Respect for any one who can work in the sector.

NovemberWitch Sun 12-Nov-17 13:16:12

Cauliflower is right, the stabilising after 5 years is also the period where many female teachers choose part-time.

KittyandTeal Sun 12-Nov-17 13:21:25

I’m pretty sure we lost about a third when I trained.

I’m 8 years in now, interestingly I’m now 5 years in to part time after having dd. I could not have sustained full time much longer.

noblegiraffe Sun 12-Nov-17 13:35:55

I wouldn't have made it through my PGCE if I'd had a young family either. It's a hugely intense and time-consuming year and things don't get much better after that.

I luckily went into teaching before having children, and was able to go part time on return from maternity leave. I wouldn't still be teaching otherwise.

eastwest Sun 12-Nov-17 15:15:38

I am a career changer with a young child. I don't want to drop out. I have never dropped out from anything in my life (and i have done other post grad etc.). But it is absolutely miserable for all the reasons you state above. If I knew others were dropping out form my course I would probably follow them. I also think (bearing in mind conversations with fellow mature PGCE students) that if you have worked in other sectors, it simply seems irrational to design a course that has such a high drop-out rate. Why not just make the course more manageable and build in support? That apparent lack of common sense really puts people off teaching when they have another career or sector to compare it to. They don't mind working hard, but they mind working pointlessly and inefficiently. They mind, for example, being told to 'reflect on their practice' and then being laden with so much busy-work that they haven't the time to.
Just my 2 cents...

noblegiraffe Sun 12-Nov-17 15:19:43

simply seems irrational to design a course that has such a high drop-out rate

It pretty much mirrors teaching as a job though.

Appuskidu Sun 12-Nov-17 15:22:39

I luckily went into teaching before having children, and was able to go part time on return from maternity leave. I wouldn't still be teaching otherwise.

Snap.

simply seems irrational to design a course that has such a high drop-out rate

But that’s teaching for you! Surely it would foolish to have a course that gives you no insight at all into the realities of the job.

eastwest Sun 12-Nov-17 15:24:02

Well, exactly - that's why people drop out.

FormerlyFrikadela01 Sun 12-Nov-17 15:26:33

simply seems irrational to design a course that has such a high drop-out rate

It pretty much mirrors teaching as a job though

I don't think it's unique to teaching either. When I started my nurse training there was 25 in mental health. We had 11 at the end. Other branches also experienced similar drop out rates.
I think people go into it not truly understanding the pressures.

eastwest Sun 12-Nov-17 15:53:18

Surely it would be foolish to have a course that has a 12% dropout rate in the first term? Surely that might imply there is something wrong ith the design or implementation of the course?
The drop out rate from the profession before 5 years, we were told on our course, was 50%. In the private sector, that would be considered a horrific waste of resources, and people would urgently look for ways to reduce it. ATL reported that 76% of teachers cite 'workload' as the reason for leaving the profession. The OP's own students are telling her/him why they are leaving.
I don't know what else to say, really, if it's not obvious... The problem is not with the students. It is with the course, and if the course is designed that way to reflect the job, then with the job too - and that's why people are dropping out. But i would add that in any other training course, you support people more when they are just starting out (isn't that called scaffolding?).

Primaryteach87 Sun 12-Nov-17 16:09:22

Of the 20/30 from my PGCE that I’m in contact with not a single one is teaching full time. We qualified about six years ago. Some are part time, a few supply and a good number are doing something different. It’s not that we don’t want to teach, it’s that the corporate ‘aprentice’ style atmosphere, testing, focus on data rather than on actual people is not fulfilling and the workload and pressure is crushing. All have said to me that if things changed they’d go back.

Appuskidu Sun 12-Nov-17 16:13:30

Of the 20/30 from my PGCE that I’m in contact with not a single one is teaching full time.

Same here. I also agree with the poster who said

the stabilising after 5 years is also the period where many female teachers choose part-time.

Things are proper proper awful at the moment and so many people just don’t seem to know or even care.

ReinettePompadour Sun 12-Nov-17 16:24:11

Im a governor at a college. Ive seen the drop out rate around 30% in the first few months before. I think the best year it was around 10%.

I do feel they do an excellent job of selling the PGCE and of course only the successful students are used as ambassadors for the course.

Once the reality kicks in for new students some realise they've chosen the wrong career and bail out quickly.

Incidentally my ds has for the last 4 years had 3 consecutive teachers fresh out of university who quit before Christmas. 1 actually refused to come back to the school to collect her belongings after walking out 1 lunchtime following an altercation with a parent. Such a shame.

I think they need some genuine teachers to tell the hard truth about it so they have less choose the course/career in the first place.

noblegiraffe Sun 12-Nov-17 16:37:21

Teachers were told off for 'talking down the profession' and contributing to the recruitment crisis by Nicky Morgan.

NovemberWitch Sun 12-Nov-17 16:38:54

Genuine teachers have been very specific about the problems; ridiculous challenges pupil progress targets, inclusion without support and the continuously moving goal posts for a decade or more. We have discussed it online, in the media and in person.
We have been dismissed by many as whinging doom-mongers who lack stamina, by those in government, those who make policy and by parents.
Not surprising that the fresh cannon fodder think that they will all be different, that they will rise and achieve where lesser teachers have failed. Then they slowly realise that we weren’t lying, and that they are now slowly sinking in the mire. Snake oil only takes you so far.

larrygrylls Sun 12-Nov-17 16:40:11

I think that the PGCE experience varies tremendously. Some schools are much ‘nicer’ than others (some on my course went to private schools, others to what sounded far closer to a borstal). Equally some mentors mentor properly whereas others seem to think it is the educational equivalent of the SAS selection course.

I think the variability of the course coupled with the demands on one time make the drop out rate high.

It seems a shame to me that so many talented and dedicated potential teachers are lost and, additionally, I am not actually sure it is the strongest who are retained.

One solution would be to reduce the % of a full timetable both for the pgce year and nqt year (say from 60 and 90 to 50 and 75). This would allow teachers to prepare lessons without it killing them and focus on the pedagogy and classroom management. The reduction in timetable would cost schools in the NQT year, but not that much.

Appuskidu Sun 12-Nov-17 16:42:26

Teachers were told off for 'talking down the profession' and contributing to the recruitment crisis by Nicky Morgan.

Yes, then she implemented the workload survey, which I for one, filled in at some length-and the outcomes were totally shite.

What was it? We faithfully promise not to implement any changes to the curriculum without much notice (unless we have to) and we faithfully promise to not make any changes to tests or exams half way through the year (unless we have to). We also promise to do the workload survey again in 2 years.

Or something equally pointless.

NovemberWitch Sun 12-Nov-17 16:46:20

Larry, how would that solve the problem of people dropping out in the first 5 years? NQTs already have a reduced timetable and responsibilities.

larrygrylls Sun 12-Nov-17 16:58:00

November,

Not really. They have a 90% timetable but must have an NQT meeting once a week and evidence their standards, which cancels out the timetable reduction.

For the vast majority of them they will be teaching a significant portion of the material for the first time, which means loads of preparation. Most NQTs are pretty much first in, last out.

How about a 70 or 75% timetable and 90% in year 2, only going up to a full timetable in year 3. Does it have cost and timetabling implications? Yes. Are they insurmountable? In my opinion no.

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