e-cigarettes debate

[Weechancer]

The Scottish Parliament Health & Sport committee is holding a public consultation on e-cigs so i have started a change.org.uk petition to open up this debate.

MNHQ has edited this post as petition links and such must be posted in our Petitions board, however for those who are interested it is easy to find from the information above

[Weechancer]

I am working on the 10 most common myths about e-cigs.
Myth 1 = E-cigs have a different type of Nicotine, so are safer than tobacco?

Answer = what utter nonsense, nicotine is nicotine the only difference could be its strength. E- cigs are just a way of the tobacco industry keeping nicotine addicts on board, to profit from their ill-health.

If anyone has a myth to share, please do. Max

[WeAllFloat]

But, nicotine in itself is not really that bad?? It's addictive yes, but way better than the cancer causing shite in real cigs.

[exLtEveDallas]

Don't be bloody ridiculous.

[exLtEveDallas]

To the OP, not you Float

[Weechancer]

WeAllFloat, sorry to say that like so many people you have not understood the nature of nicotine. It is a stimulant drug, so when you take it your heart speeds up, your body gets stressed and you get high. A very few minutes later you crash down again and don't like that low, agitated even depressed state, so what do you do? Have another shot of nicotine to get you back where you want to be. This traps you in what I call the addictive circle or loop. A perfect drug to make loads of money from, because with time your tolerance increases, so you need more nicotine. You are then trapped in that loop until you decide enough is enough and jump off.

E-cigs are nothing more than a different way to get a nicotine hit. The tobacco industry who owns most of that new trade in nicotine, love it because it came in with no legal restraints, not even on kids using it. E-cigs keeps the reluctant smoking quitters on board. I hope that all makes sense?

[AndNowItsSeven]

Nicotine is no worse than caffeine , you are being ridiculous.

[ditavonteesed]

so just like caffeine and sugar then?

[AgentCooper]

Hmm, as a vaper I do often wish there was more quality control but honestly, e-cigarettes have been a Godsend for many. Big tobacco have their own (shitty) brands on the market but most vendors are independent. The govt and tobacco industry would love to shut the industry down because fewer people are now smoking, less money's going into the tobacco companies' coffers and therefore people are paying less tax.

As I said, I'm all for better quality control but I think the e cigarette industry should be engaged with, not hounded off the streets. All shops in my area have a no under-18s rule too.

[gamerchick]

Nicotine isn't harmful on its own it's true.

You know if you smoke you get shit, if you vape you get interfering busybodies who need to poke their noses in somewhere else and fuck the fuck off.

The only harm vaping does is to the treasury and the government can't stand that and desperately want to take back the control.

[WeAllFloat]

They are no worse than Nicorette patches, which doctors prescribe. Nicotine is addictive, yes, like I said. But it's not really bad. Just addictive. I'd argue gambling is a far worse addiction than nicotine in e cigs.

[Twunk]

What's your beef here Op? Would you prefer people smoked cigarettes? I don't smoke - used to though - and had little trouble giving up but I know plenty do, and I'd rather there was a safer method to meet the nicotine craving, as well as the hand-to-mouth action of inhaling it.

I find this puritanical obsession with banning e-cigs to be weird to be honest. As far as addictions go it's fairly benign.

[ginmakesitallok]

Op, read this www.gov.uk/government/news/e-cigarettes-around-95-less-harmful-than-tobacco-estimates-landmark-review

[coffeeisnectar]

Vaping is much healthier than smoking cigarettes. I quit cigarettes in February this year and my lung function is hugely improved.

I buy my stuff from a large company online, not market stalls etc. I vape in the house. I didn't smoke in the house. It does not give off toxic smoke, does not stain your teeth or make your clothes smell.

The only issue is the moaning from people like the op who, not satisfied with giving out about cigs, has moved onto people vaping.

Why does it bother you? What harm is it causing you? None I'll bet.

[rockabillyruby82]

E-cigs aren't healthy but a damn site healthier than tobacco and people who use them KNOW they are still addicted to nicotine, they've chosen to inhale the vape rather than the toxins in tobacco.
Lots of people have found it helpful as a step to being nicotine free as psychologically you feel like you are quitting the cigarettes.
Seriously, get off your pedestal, leave people to make their own informed choices.

[exLtEveDallas]

I've never heard anyone say that nicotine in vape juice is a 'different type of nicotine' - so maybe that's a myth in itself. Don't worry OP a whole 28 people have signed your petition - only another 99972 to go before you get your debate

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

FGS really?

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

Yes, read gin's link. Public Health England have looked at all the available evidence:

Key findings of the review include:

- the current best estimate is that e-cigarettes are around 95% less harmful than smoking
- nearly half the population (44.8%) don’t realise e-cigarettes are much less harmful than smoking
- there is no evidence so far that e-cigarettes are acting as a route into smoking for children or non-smokers

They were particularly concerned that the spreading of bullshit about ecigs is discouraging smokers to switch and so is massively increasing their chances of an early, painful death from smoking-related disease.

If anybody would like to watch the Scottish Sport and Health Committee question a panel of experts as part of this consultation, it's on Youtube . It's rather good It's quite long and also includes debate around smoke-free hospital grounds.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

I've never heard your 'nicotine myth' before, either from pro-vapers or anti-vapers. I think you just made it up because you don't know what you are talking about but are having some sort of outraged knee-jerk reaction against vaping. Maybe this is because it looks a bit like smoking, maybe it's because smokers who use ecigs to quit aren't quite miserable enough for your liking. Whatever.

The nicotine in ecigs is pharmaceutical grade - exactly the same as is used in patches, gum, lozenges etc. and which is considered safe enough to prescribe to pregnant women and children as young as 12.

But seeing as you have invited us to share myths, let's make a start, shall we?

The purpose of this petition.

To place the onus on the e-cigarette industry to fund totally independent research, to prove that their products are not harmful to our health.

Myth 1: Research funded by the ecig industry will be accepted as 'totally independent'
Truth: Some of the best, most useful research for improving the (already rather good) safety of vaping has been crowdfunded by vapers and vape companies (Farsalinos). It is routinely ignored or discounted by the anti-vaping contingent of PH because 'conflicts of interest' i.e. they can't fault the studies so they fall back on ad hominem attacks.

Myth 2: It is possible to prove that anything, anything at all, is not harmful to health.
Truth: That's not how science works. All science can do is look for evidence of harm and either find it or not find it. No evidence of harm has been found for vaping. There are a few small, hypothetical risks which is why the best estimate is ~95% less harmful than smoking.

This is going to take a while! Are you aiming for two myths per sentence all the way through your petition text?

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

Background:

In the last 5 -7 years the e-cigarette industry, which is mainly owned by the tobacco industry, has gone from no sales of their products, to over 6 million users in Europe and 2.6 Million users in the UK. The phenomenal growth of this new way of using nicotine has been made possible because the myth that they aid smokers to quit, has been created to market these products.

Myth 3: The ecig industry is mainly owned by the tobacco industry
Truth: As of 2014, WHO counted 466 vaping brands. 7 of these are owned by tobacco companies and their products are universally shit. Tobacco industry involvement in the market is problematic but not entirely a bad thing:

• they are currently marketing shit products that set up vapers for failure - bad
  
• lots of PH bods have lost sight of the ultimate goal (health!) and are instead simply waging a war on tobacco companies so their involvement in ecigs is a PR problem - bad
  
• tobacco companies have loads and loads of money and could if they chose put in the R&D to make something truly effective. They are also the only ones who have enough money to jump through the MHRA hoops and produce a medicinally licenced ecig (which will be fairly shit but useful for certain groups, e.g. people on very low incomes, people in MH hospital settings - i.e. the smokers who current SSS are failing) - potentially good
  

Myth 4: Ecigs don't aid smokers to quit
Truth: You've found the 2.6 million UK users statistic so you will also have found that 1/3 of them are no longer smokers. Read the relevant section in the PHE report, look at Professor Robert West's study which found that smokers were 60% more likely to succeed in quitting with ecigs than those who used willpower alone or OTC NRT, or look at Louise Ross's results when she persuaded Leicester SSS to go ecig friendly - and ask yourself why SSS around the UK are now falling over themselves to follow her lead.

Also, don't ignore NICE guidance on tobacco harm reduction. Lots and lots of people will never manage to quit nicotine. This is why 100,000 lives are lost in the uk each year to smoking. Only an arsehole would conclude they deserve to die early when cleaner and pretty much harmless sources of nicotine are available.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

Myths cost companies absolutely nothing, because the public and the media multiply up the myth, and the public quickly come to believe, these constantly repeated myths, from what they see; hear in the media, from their peers and families.

Health Myths are particularly dangerous because they have the potential to cause us and our children harm. They also add greatly to the cost of our NHS.

You're kind of on the right track here but you also have things completely arse-about-face. Health myths are particularly dangerous, you are right. This is a big part of why PHE felt it necessary to publish their report:

Harm perceptions
Although the majority of adults and youth still correctly perceive EC to be less harmful than tobacco cigarettes, there has been an overall shift towards the inaccurate perception of EC being at least as harmful as cigarettes over the last year, for both groups.

Policy implications
- Clear and accurate information on relative harm of nicotine, EC and tobacco cigarettes is needed urgently
- Research is needed to explore how health perceptions of EC are developed, in relation to tobacco cigarettes and NRT, and how they can be influenced

You are part of the problem. Please stop it.

(yes I do have a lot of time on my hands and yes I am going to go through your stupid fucking petition para by para because lives are at stake here )

[rockabillyruby82]

You just got burned OP

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

The principal that the polluters should pay, should apply to the e-cigarette producers and retailers. They should provide substantial funding, to undertake the vital research, which will inform governments and the public, of the effectiveness and safety of e-cigarettes, and similar products. The research should be undertaken by one of our universities, such as Stirling University, which has a long-established, academic record of very high quality research into health issues. Especially their research into the tobacco trade.

Myth 5: Ecigs cause pollution
Truth: They don't, not so's you'd notice and not so as would affect you in the slightest (beyond, 'wah, I don't like the smell and they look like smoking'). Burstyn, 2013 - Exposures of bystanders ... thus pose no apparent concern. and also, This - New study proves there is no second-hand vaping: e-cigarette aerosol contains less volatile compounds than normal exhaled breath (Farsalinos commenting on Spanish Council of Scientific Research study). If you want to say that ecigs are a serious pollutant we should all worry about, it's up to you to provide evidence.

Myth 6: Ecig producers and retailers have 'substantial funding' to provide for research.
Truth: As I said in a previous post, only 7 out of the 466 identified ecig brands are owned by tobacco companies. The vast majority of the rest are SME. Nevertheless, they have been bloody marvellous on the whole, both in crowdfunding research which answers the truly useful questions about how to make vaping even safer, and in coming up with innovative technology which improves the safety of vaping. What a shame that overregulation is likely to see many of these small, innovative companies go out of business next year.

Stirling University
I'm a big fan! If you have connections with Stirling, please go and have a chat with Professor Linda Bauld. She'll set you right and will be a lot more polite than me

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

I am asking the public to support this petition, which will be presented to the Scottish and UK governments, by telling us if they agree (YES) or disagree (NO), with the onus being placed on this industry to undertake this research. In submitting your views pleases indicate at the start of your comments that your are voting for either a YES or NO to this proposal.

You don't understand how petitions work, do you? There's no way to vote 'no' without adding a signature to your petition.

NO!

As the creator of this petition I should make it clear that after 50 years in youth work, with a special interest in youth health issues, especially around addictions and mental health, I take the view that YES the industry that stands to make billions of pounds from this re-marketing of Nicotine, must take responsibility for it’s actions.

I am frightened for the youths in your care.

Every year, an estimated 207,000 young people start smoking in the UK. One third to one half of them will become regular smokers. Of those who become long term smokers, half will die prematurely, losing on average a decade of life. Smoking rates among young people are falling rapidly - hooray! Over exactly the same timescale that ecigs have become popular - also hooray! WTF is your problem?

[gamerchick]

I was saying to the husband recently that I hardly see anyone smoking anymore but see loads puffing on vape pens. Young, old the lot.

This is a good thing imo and probably the reason they're sacking off ciggies in tens.

[Icrackedup]

Are you going to add potatoes, tomatoes and peppers to your petition? They contain nicotine albeit at a lower concentration than tobacco. People could start eating or juicing these in far higher quantities than they do now to get their nicotine.