EU citizens and UK Settled Status

[StillGotCake]

I am fast losing the little confidence I have left in Teresa May.

The proposed arrangements for EU citizens post-Brexit are a dog's dinner.

In particular, EU citizens who have previously acquired a permanent residency card (at significant cost and in the face of excessive bureaucracy) are now told that they shouldn't have bothered. It's worthless. They will need to reapply for "Settled Status".

For the love of God, why?? Is TM determined to make the UK the most disliked nation on the planet? If EU citizens have already applied successfully for a PERMANENT residency card surely that can be simply transferred over to settled status without further bureaucracy (and fees).

I have been generally supportive of the U.K. govt in trying to navigate a pathway through Brexit, but my patience is wearing thin. They look incompetent and we are becoming a deeply unloved laughing stock.

[Mistigri]

The other big issue (apart from the hot potato of who oversees this) is that settled status can be lost.

So if an EU citizen and his/her family were to be posted temporarily abroad by an employer, they might be unable to return unless one family member was British and met the earnings limits for Britons bringing family members to the UK.

It's a dog's dinner and will be rejected by the EU.

The other question - raised by a Labour MP in the HoC yesterday - is who oversees the agreement for British nationals in the EU. If it is to be national courts (as May's proposal would imply) then it is hugely detrimental to us, as it does not protect against the possibility that national governments could change their immigration law in future.

The EU proposal is greatly preferable for Britons in the EU.

[Lucysky2017]

I think quite a few on the UK and EU side think disputes should be decided by a separate new body comprising some English and some EU judges so it is neutral. That is very common with international arbitration anyway.

I don't know enough about the UK current law on indefinite leave to remain and "permanent" residency to know what it means nor do I think the UK has really issued much detail yet even after today on what will be required. Could these people not just apply to become British citizens, give up their foreign passport and get a UK passport?

[SerfTerf]

In particular, EU citizens who have previously acquired a permanent residency card (at significant cost and in the face of excessive bureaucracy) are now told that they shouldn't have bothered. It's worthless. They will need to reapply for "Settled Status".

But PR holders do get access to a shorter process at a reduced fee in recognition of the fact they've already been checked and cleared (and paid). So the PR is actually NOT "worthless" in either time or cash terms.

[fatdogs]

@mistigri yes settled status can be lost if one is not physically resident in the UK. So upon return, they may have to meet all the criteria set, such as one partner having to be British National and meeting minimum income requirements. That is exactly what non EU immigrants have to go through so why should it be any different for EU immigrants post Brexit?

[GrouchyKiwi]

I don't know enough about the UK current law on indefinite leave to remain and "permanent" residency to know what it means nor do I think the UK has really issued much detail yet even after today on what will be required. Could these people not just apply to become British citizens, give up their foreign passport and get a UK passport?

Well, it's £1500 or thereabouts for citizenship so it's not as easy as all that. Wouldn't necessarily have to give up original nationality, depending on each country's rules either.

I'm annoyed about this. I got my PR card a couple of weeks ago and it was a stressful process. Going through that again - even if it is expedited - doesn't appeal. Will likely go for citizenship, if we can find the money.

[pointythings]

fatdogs but that basically means that an EU citizen working for a UK based company could be posted overseas for two years and then might not be allowed to come back. Meanwhile they might well still own property in the UK, still be employed by the above mentioned UK company, be accruing a UK pension... It's an absolute bloody dog's dinner. Very ill thought out.

[fatdogs]

Well it is the same for a non EU citizen working for UK company who may be posted out. The non EU citizen may also own property in the UK and have community ties and friends they would lose if rhey lose their settled status by being out of the country. The non EU citizen would then have to make a choice as to whether to take the posting or lose settled status. Why should the EU citizen be exempt from those hard choices after Brexit?
No one cared about the utter contempt and legal obstacles faced by non EU citizens who are stoked or want to be settled in this country. And they were told to accept what was in effect discrimination since EU citizens enjoy special status due to freedom of movement. So fine. But guess what after Brexit, EU citizens don't enjoy that special status anymore and so why should they be exempt from rules regarding settlement. Take citizenship then if they want to cement their right to stay.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Bringing Non EU citizens into this a red herring. EU citizens have acted in good faith, played by the rules now those rules have changed. They had no say in this, despite in some cases having lived here decades, they could not vote in the referendum.

Why go through the expensive bureaucratic nightmare of citizenship? To some they will still have the "wrong" accent and "wrong" surname. They are being treated as bargaining chips.

[fatdogs]

No one is suggesting that they did not act in good faith but rules change all that time. Again NON EU citizens have had to cope with having immigration laws change on a turn of a dime. So EU citizens are now treated on par since UK is out of the EU. They are still given the chance to formalize their status in the UK and they can choose to take it or not. As for discrimination becuase they have the wrong accent or wrong surname, what do you think non EU citizens have been facing all these years? Or are you suggesting that such discrimination is ok becuase they (non EU) are somehow lesser than EU citizens? I notice no one has been so vocal in their defence of NON EU citizens and the appalling way they have been treated over the past 15 years when it comes to immigration laws. I also notice that a lot of non EU immigrants tend not to be white while EU immigrants largely are. My cynical mind can't help but draw some correlation there.

[allegretto]

Fatdogs - it's not the same thing at all. Non EU citizens should not be brought into this. It's not a race to the bottom.

[pointythings]

Rules change all the time. True. Retroactive rule changes - not so normal. Not moral. Not decent, not fair and most certainly not generous. What the EU is offering UK citizens - no change at all - now that is generous.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Given the nature of parts of the leave campaign (I'm thinking the breaking point poster) were focused on immigration its understandable people are tetchy about ID cards etc.

People have spoken out about the treatment of non Brits whether EU citizens, refugees etc. The "no dogs, no blacks, no irish" signs of the 70's also spring to mind.

[Caprianna]

Not all countries allow dual citizenship so its not just about giving up your passport and become British.

I don't want to be British. I live here because I am married to a Brit. It does not mean that I want to become British.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Agreed. Forcing someones hand to become a British citizen isn't necessarily going to make them feel British.

[0nline]

Is TM determined to make the UK the most disliked nation on the planet? If EU citizens have already applied successfully for a PERMANENT residency card surely that can be simply transferred over to settled status without further bureaucracy (and fees).

If it is any consolation, I fully anticipate the possibility of Italy making a paperwork rich, dog's dinner of it when a reciprocal agreement is arrived at.

When Romania joined the EU the change of adding a country to an existing system ended up with system crashes left, right and centre. And I, along with many other people at random, ended up booted off the health database Which I discovered some months later when I got a massive dose of tonsillitis and my doc couldn't treat me. Which was fun. I so love long queues, grumpy Italian state workers and filling in reams of forms when I have a temp of 39 and can only weakly croak in answer to questions.

I'll be ready this time. I'll do a test run to the doctor as soon as I get my new "special not proper EU type anymore" status, well before I get sick.

At least there is the possibility of an end in sight. This long state of limbo has been crap.

[fatdogs]

And why the techchiness about IS cards? Again NON EU citizens had had to carry a biometric residence permit for ages now. It IS a form of ID card that confirms their visa status in this country and the terms of their stay,eg: not entitled to public funds. So ID cards are "othering"? Well is "othering" of non EU citizens ok then? And if so why? Are people suspicious that carrying ID cards may cause them to be subject to surveillance and discrimination? Well it was deemed ok to subject non EU citizens to this. I am a non EU citizen that has paid in the 10s of thousands for years of visa renewals, I am a higher rate taxpayer and have been for a lot of the time I have been here. Never been eligible for benefit and for my last visa renewal, i had to pay £600 for NHS surcharge so I dont even get the free healthcare that is the offered to all in the country apparently.My partner is a British national. What makes me deserve lesser than an EU citizen now that UK is out of the EU? The EU nationals should count themselves luckybthat they are not being made to apply under the criteria of language proficiency and income requirements that a lot of NON EU citizens are subject to. This is a process to simply formalize their present stay here and everyone currently here will be eligible to apply and stay. That is very generous to me.

[fatdogs]

Despite my bitterness at the horrible way UKVI has treated non EU citizens, I spend the money and play by the unreasonable rules as on balance I feel that my life here is worth it and I value my partner and social ties. I have been told that if I am unhappy about the immigration laws, I can fuck off back where I came from to to another country that has immigration laws to my liking. Never mind that my partner has children who are British, never mind my friends and work. Just fuck off if you're not happy woth hiw the laws are applied.Surely that sentiment can now be applied to EU citizens. I just can't help feeling such schadenfreude about all of this.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Generous?

EU citizens are being used as bargaining chips. Their lives have been on hold for over a year, it has been very stressful I'm sure. As a previous poster said this is not a race to the bottom. Many EU citizens have been living and working here for decades and now they must go through a costly paper exercise. They become second class citizens unless of course everyone is expected to carry an ID card.

[fatdogs]

So Again, non EU citizens have to carry an ID card or its equivalent. Is it ok then for them to be second class citizens and if so why? I agree that all citizens should carry ID cards but if not, then all immigrants should and not certain groups of immigrants.

[fatdogs]

I come from a country that does not allow dual citizenship and I have had to turn down job offers which would take me out ofbthe UK and cause me to lose settled status. I am going to have to make a decision very soon about whether to give up my nationality and take British nationality. It's a painful choice. We all have to make hard choices. EU citizens were formerly privileged as this country as part ofbthe EU. It is not now or will not be soon, so those privileges will cease to exist. And so people will have to make hard choices. Not difficult to comprehend

[Lucysky2017]

My ancestors moved here, totally assimiliated and rejected their previous nationality and took British. I think that tends to be the better way and will keep things simpler for people - one allegiance, one country, one nationality like most of the rest of us.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

You can't force people to feel allegiance. Doesn't forcing someone's hand to take citizenship, a paper exercise undermine patriotism?

[fatdogs]

But shouldn't the fact that they want to stay mean that they do see some value and sentimentality tobthis country? One would hope so. But yes you cannot force it. And no one is forcing it. They can apply for settled status and simply continue staying here. If the difficulty is then about travelling for long periods then they have to make a choice about their future ties to this country. If they feel no allegiance and sentimentality then maybe it would be better to take that posting abroad and stay there and not return.

[Mistigri]

That is exactly what non EU immigrants have to go through so why should it be any different for EU immigrants post Brexit?

So an EU citizen, who has lived in the U.K. possibly for decades, could be denied the right to live with his/her British spouse and kids following a period working abroad?

If this is what counts for "British values" these days then I no longer want to be considered British.

[allegretto]

I don't get it Fatdogs. You describe a bad situation for non- EU residents and instead of saying let's try and improve it, you are happy that others are now in the same situation.