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Bank holidays and compressed hours

(31 Posts)
AntiHop Tue 10-Jan-17 23:53:45

I work full time, compressed hours over 4 days. I am getting mixed messages from HR about what happens if a bank holiday falls on a day that I am not at work. I know that bank holidays would be pro-rata if I was part time, but my contract is full time.

Has anyone know the right answer?

prh47bridge Wed 11-Jan-17 01:32:08

It is probably simplest to calculate your entitlement in hours. As you are working 4 days per week your statutory entitlement is 22.4 days holiday per year - that works out at the same number of hours as employees working a 5 day week. Bank holidays only come out of your entitlement if they fall on a day you would normally work.

mirokarikovo Wed 11-Jan-17 04:06:27

Yes like prh47 says do the calculation in hours. If full time workers work 40 hours a week and get a standard 28 days of leave including bank holidays that is 224 hours of leave per year.

You are working 40 hours a week over 4 days so also get 224 hours of leave per year.

When it is a bank holiday someone who works normal office hours gets 8 hours off but you get 10 hours off. That is fine so long as the right number of hours is recorded.

AntiHop Wed 11-Jan-17 19:37:59

I am still confused! My boss told me to calculate my leave in hours, and then convert it back to days, so each annual leave day is worth 9 hours. But that means on a week that my day off falls on a bank holiday, and I take the whole week off, I have to take 5x9 days off which is more than the 37 hours I am employed per week.

Am I definitely entitled to all the bank holidays despite compressed hours?

Crumbs1 Wed 11-Jan-17 19:48:27

We'd give all bank holidays but we tell all full time employees they have, say, 37 days including bank holidays. The actual number of days varies depending on length of service. So all days taken come out of the total number. A person working five days a week would take five days leave for a bank holiday week. A compressed hours person would have 37.5 hours per week x37 days leave so 1837.5 total hours leave. If they worked four days a week each working day taken (including bank holidays) would use up around 9.4 hours from the total amount of hours. So if the bank holiday was a usual working day it would be deducted from hours but if not a usual working day, it would not be deductible.

Lazybeans50 Wed 11-Jan-17 20:06:40

My advice would be don't convert back hours back to days and take leave in hours. So for BH you get the same in hours as a standard persons full time day e.g. 7.4. So if you wanted to take the full week off you would take 37-7.4 hrs leave (e.g. 29.6 hrs leave). If you were just taking the BH and didn't want to make up the additional compressed hours for that day over the rest of the week you would need to make up the short fall from your annual leave allowance (e.g. 1.6 hrs leave). I also think you should get a standard day's credit if a BH falls on a day that you don't work due to your compressed hours (e.g. Good Friday if you don't work Fridays) which should be added to your annual leave entitlement but you should check this with your HR dept.

MumUndone Wed 11-Jan-17 20:10:31

I would pro-rata your holiday based on number of days worked. A standard working week is 5 days and you work 4, so your pro-rata multiplier is 4 ÷ 5 = 0.8

If standard holidays are 25 days, then pro-rata amount is 25*0.8 = 20.

Standard bank hols are 8 days, then pro-rata amount is 8*0.8 = 6.5.

When a bank holiday falls on a normal working day you use one of your pro-rata entitlement, the remaining you add on to your holiday entitlement and use when you wish.

prh47bridge Wed 11-Jan-17 20:15:23

I don't understand why you think taking a whole week off would be 5x9 hours. You only work 4 days each week so it cannot be more than 4 days off.

If, say, the bank holiday is on Monday and you normally work Tuesday to Friday, you are taking Tuesday to Friday off - 4 x 9 hours = 36 hours.

If the bank holiday is on Friday and you normally work Tuesday to Friday you are still taking Tuesday to Friday off - 4 x 9 hours = 36 hours.

You do NOT lose any holiday entitlement when a bank holiday falls on a day that is not one of your normal working days.

MumUndone Wed 11-Jan-17 20:18:19

N.B. with the method described above, you are still benefiting from the same number of hours of leave as a standard full-timer, as your days of leave are worth 9 hours whilst a standard full-timer's days are worth 7.2 hours (based on a 36 hour week).

e.g. bank hols: 8 days x 7.2 hours = 57.6

6.4 days x 9 hours = 57.6

Scrowy Wed 11-Jan-17 20:29:23

Yep you have to start thinking in hours and minutes instead of days. Lazybean's way of working it out is how I would do it. You can get calculators online that convert 'hours' into a decimal like this one www.springfrog.com/converter/decimal-time.htm

E.g based on a typical 37 hour week (5x 7.4) If you work 10 days worth of hours over 9 days

37 x 2 = 74 hours to be completed over 9 days
74 / 9 = 8.22 (approx) decimal time = real time 8 hours 13 minutes ( and a few seconds)

If a bank holiday falls on one of your working days you either need to work an extra 0.82 hours (49 minutes) that during your 9 days or take 49 minutes as annual leave.

If a bank holiday falls on your compressed day off then you are owed 7.4 (7hrs 24 mins) hours back by your employer

prh47bridge Wed 11-Jan-17 21:12:58

If a bank holiday falls on one of your working days you either need to work an extra 0.82 hours (49 minutes) that during your 9 days or take 49 minutes as annual leave

This is plain wrong.

Bank holidays are part of your statutory holiday entitlement, not some kind of extra. Even though companies often quote holiday entitlement as x days plus bank holidays, what that really means is you get x+8 days holiday with the company stipulating that 8 days must be taken on bank holidays.

If a bank holiday falls on a working day in your example the employee would lose 8.22 hours from their annual leave. There is no need to take 49 minutes of annual leave or work an extra 49 minutes.

If a bank holiday falls on a non-working day nothing is deducted from the employee's holiday allowance. The employer does not owe the employee anything back.

I stand by my answer. The OP is entitled to 22.4 days holiday per year including bank holidays (assuming normal employees are entitled to 28 days including bank holidays, which is the legal minimum. If normal employees get more the OP's entitlement increases in proportion). If a bank holiday falls on one of her normal working days this takes up 1 day of her holiday entitlement. If a bank holiday falls on a day when she would not normally work she still gets the day off but it does not use up any of her holiday entitlement.

Scrowy Wed 11-Jan-17 21:21:47

prh47bridge no you have misunderstood. That calculation is nothing to do with the actual bank holiday and everything to do with working the number of hours you are getting paid for.

The OP gets a day off on the basis that she works extra hours on the other days. She would be getting paid for hours she hadn't worked on weeks where bank holidays fell in her favour if she didn't work it out that way. That would be incredibly unfair on her colleagues who don't work compressed hours.

It has nothing to do with annual leave either. That is entirely separate to compressed hours.

Scrowy Wed 11-Jan-17 21:35:27

Basically the OPs workplace's typical working day is say 7.4 hours per day 5 days a week and the employees get paid for 37 hours a week.

The op however compresses two weeks worth (10 days) of 7.4 days into 9 days meaning that for 9 days she works 7.4 + 0.82 (8.22) per day and has the 10th day off. She is still paid for 37 hours per week.

On the weeks where there is a bank holiday every employee gets the standard day of 7.4 hours worth of time off work including the OP. This is fine for all non compressed employees they just carry on business as usual as the bank holiday has already been factored into their wages/hours over the year.

The person who is on compressed hours however is either still planning to take their compressed day off at the usual time if it doesn't fall on the bank holiday, in which case they still need to work/use leave to cover the time they have been paid for.

If the bank holiday falls on a day they already have off as compressed then all that extra time they have worked extra on the other days to take that 7.4 hours off is still theirs to have at some other time, as they are entitled to the bank holiday hours like their colleagues. Otherwise they would have worked for free?

This is fairly standard...

AntiHop Wed 11-Jan-17 21:46:30

I really don't know why my HR department couldn't give me an answer on this!

But * prh47bridge* I work full time so I am entitled to the full annual leave entitlement. My boss asked me to convert it to hours and then back to days, so if I take 4 days leave, I don't go in at all that week, and use 4x9 hour days of leave. The reason that taking 5 days off on a bank holiday week would take up 5x9 hours of leave days is because my boss asked me to covert the leave, including bank holidays, to hours, and then covert it back in to 9 hour days, and use a day of leave for a bank holiday. So in a week when one day is a bank holiday, i have to take 5x9 hour days of leave.

AntiHop Wed 11-Jan-17 21:52:27

I think Crumbs1, Lazybeans50 and * Scrowy* are right about seeing it just in hours. The only downside is it's harder to see quickly how many days I have left, but I can keep a tally. I see what you mean MumUndone but the hours methods seems a bit more straightforward.

prh47bridge my annual leave entitlement is definitely plus bank holidays. I know some (stingy) employers do it that way, but not where I work.

Thanks everyone.

Scrowy Wed 11-Jan-17 21:55:41

Antihop I don't think your boss is correct.

The leave you need to take to have a full week off on a bank holiday week if the bank holiday doesn't fall on your compressed day is 4 x 9 hours plus the time difference between the standard working day and your working day to make you equal to everyone else for the 5th day.

Scrowy Wed 11-Jan-17 21:59:01

Antihop I use a spreadsheet calculation to keep track of mine grin

The decimal time conversion calculator is definitely your best friend if you work compressed hours.

AntiHop Wed 11-Jan-17 22:03:15

Scrowy yes that makes sense to me. Thanks. I will use the link you provided.

prh47bridge Wed 11-Jan-17 22:13:41

I work full time so I am entitled to the full annual leave entitlement

Legally you are entitled to the same number of hours leave as full time employees, not the same number of days.

My boss asked me to convert it to hours and then back to days, so if I take 4 days leave, I don't go in at all that week, and use 4x9 hour days of leave

That is correct.

The reason that taking 5 days off on a bank holiday week would take up 5x9 hours of leave days is because my boss asked me to covert the leave, including bank holidays, to hours, and then covert it back in to 9 hour days, and use a day of leave for a bank holiday

That is not correct. You should only be taking a day of leave for a bank holiday if it is a day when you should normally be working. That is the law (the Working Time Regulations, to be precise). A bank holiday that falls on a day when you would not work does not come out of your holiday entitlement.

my annual leave entitlement is definitely plus bank holidays. I know some (stingy) employers do it that way, but not where I work

It is not stingy to express holidays as a total including bank holidays. It is actually legally how all holidays work. An employer offering the statutory minimum can either say that you get 20 days holiday plus bank holidays, or that you get 28 days holiday including bank holidays. Both are exactly the same. However, the latter reflects the law more accurately.

If your employer is giving you the same number of days off as normal employees and also giving you all bank holidays they are being extraordinarily generous. If we assume that full time employees get 20 days plus bank holidays (the statutory minimum) that comes to 28 days per year, 4.6 weeks. If you also get 20 days plus bank holidays you are receiving 7 weeks annual holiday, over 50% more than normal employees.

Legally, if normal employees receive 20 days holiday per year plus bank holidays, you should be getting 22.4 days holiday per year including those bank holidays that fall on your normal working days. Bank holidays which fall on days when you would not normally be working do not come out of your entitlement.

AntiHop Wed 11-Jan-17 22:21:57

prh47bridge thanks for your response. So if what you are saying is correct, if it's a bank holiday week, and the bank holiday falls on a day that I do not work, I still work my full working week (9 hours x 4 days)? So basically I don't get to benefit from that bank holiday at all?

The point out bank holidays being in addition to annual leave is that is how my employer states it. I have a leave card that says I am entitled to 25 days a year (but I have now converted that to hours) plus bank holidays.

prh47bridge Wed 11-Jan-17 23:43:04

* So if what you are saying is correct, if it's a bank holiday week, and the bank holiday falls on a day that I do not work, I still work my full working week*

Yes.

So basically I don't get to benefit from that bank holiday at all

If you work it out you will find that the total number of hours you work per year is less than those staff who work 5 days per week. You are definitely not losing out.

Scrowy Wed 11-Jan-17 23:52:09

prh47bridge the 'day off' is only a day off because the OP has worked that day's worth of hours elsewhere in the week as longer working days, it's not just a normal non working day as if someone was part time.

The OPs annual leave entitlement is also entirely irrelevant to working out her compressed hours.

I think that is where you are perhaps getting confused. It might help to think of the day off as a regular scheduled TOIL arrangement rather than a day off?

As the OP says if it was worked out the way you are suggesting it would either mean the OP was getting paid for hours she hadn't worked, or would be working extra hours and not being paid for them depending on where her compressed day and the bank holidays fell. It would either end up being vastly unfair to her or her colleagues.

AntiHop Thu 12-Jan-17 00:11:58

prh47bridge
If you work it out you will find that the total number of hours you work per year is less than those staff who work 5 days per week. You are definitely not losing out.

That's not correct. Yes Scrowy describes it correctly. My contracted hours are full time. I arrive earlier and stay later over 4 days, so that I do not work on the 5th working day. I work the same hours each week as someone working M-F.

It would not make sense to me that I would lose out completely if a bank holiday falls on a non-working day. I wonder how it is worked out for people who work full time, but whose hours include Saturdays and Sundays.

Thanks very much for your input everyone.

prh47bridge Thu 12-Jan-17 00:14:00

I think that is where you are perhaps getting confused

I am not confused at all. I know exactly how the Working Time Regulations apply.

The OPs annual leave entitlement is also entirely irrelevant to working out her compressed hours

No, but her compressed hours are entirely relevant to working out her annual leave entitlement.

Let me set out the calculations for you.

I take it from the OP's posts that staff working 5 days per week are entitled to 25 days holiday per year plus bank holidays. That gives them 33 days holiday in total. As they appear to work a 36 hour week, 7.2 hours per day, that means they get 237.6 hours off each year.

If the OP's employer was doing this correctly, she would get a total of 26.4 days holiday per year. With a 9 hour day that works out at 237.6 hours, the same as normal staff. If a bank holiday falls on her normal working day that would be 9 hours off, i.e. the number of hours she would normally work that day. If a bank holiday falls on a day she would not normally work it does not come out of her holiday entitlement at all. If that was how the OP's employer did it (which, legally, they should) the OP would work exactly the same number of hours per year as staff who work a 5 day week.

Since it seems the OP's employer gives her the same number of days off as staff who work 5 days per week she is actually getting more hours off than they do and hence working fewer hours per year.

prh47bridge Thu 12-Jan-17 00:22:49

Yes Scrowy describes it correctly

No, I'm afraid Scrowy does NOT describe it correctly.

Ok, let me set it out in full for you.

I believe, from what you have said, that staff who work a 5 day week get 25 days plus bank holidays off every year. That means in total they get 33 days off. If they work a 26 hour week that give them 237.6 hours off each year. In a 52 week year (ignoring the odd day) they therefore work 1,634.4 hours each year.

It sounds like your employer also gives you 25 days plus bank holidays off every year. Let us assume that 2 bank holidays fall on your normal working days, so that would be a total of 27 days. Your days last 9 hours so you are getting 243 hours off each year, 5.4 hours more than those who work 5 days per week. You are therefore only working 1,629 hours per year, slightly less than those who work 5 days per week. If more than 2 bank holidays fall on your normal working days the difference would be greater. If all 8 fell on your normal working days you would actually be working 59.4 hours a year less than your colleagues who work 5 days a week.

You really are not losing out.

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