parental leave denied

[user1471461798]

I work term time only and requested parental leave for 3 weeks as my daughter leaves school this year and we plan on going to Florida as it’s less money than school holidays. Anyway my employer has rejected it , stating I have enough holiday throughout the year. My argument is I am entitled to this leave and have spoken to Acas who agree with me. I should add that my job entails covering for others, sickness, days off to look after their children and also holidays! How do I deal with this?

This thread is crazy. I'm thinking about requesting parental leave just to see how much my employers mess it up.

Good luck OP, hopefully you won't have to resign but it sounds like you've got your work/life balance sorted. Life is too short to worry about it.

Good luck OP. They have really messed it up and don't see how they can really refuse your request.

I don't see how they can say she has to take alternative dates now? They have to do that within 7 days of the request, which they didn't. They can't completely refuse the request and didn't postpone within the required timescale so the requested dates will have to be honoured surely

That was my thought too.
My understanding of the timeline is:
OP requests 3 weeks' parental leave to which she has a legal requirement.
OP waits more than 7 days - during which time the employer is supposed to reply to approve, or suggest alternative legal dates (i.e. not before OP's DD turns 18, which is going to be relatively soon I imagine).
Employer does not respond within 7 days either way.
OP's DH perhaps foolishly assumes this means approval and books holiday.
After the 7 days are up OP receives unhelpful rejection which does not include alternative dates but does (I think) state that OP will be fired if she takes the parental leave.

So the HR department now has two choices:

1. Reinstate parental leave on requested dates (and haul OP's line manager over the coals).
2. Tell OP's line manager to get their backside in gear and suggest practical alternative dates (on dates when the OP actually works, and before OP's DD turns 18), ASAP. In which case OP's DH can ask to change the flights. Tell OP's line manager to humbly beg forgiveness for not adhering to the rules and scaring OP.

(Oh and if no 2. ask OP's PERMISSION to suggest alternative dates as they have not adhered to rules).

My experience of the whole concept of parental leave is that employers either
a) don't know it exists and if told it does, are shocked and think it's a scam or
b) don't know it exists and if told it does, are very excited about how it can help their employees.

And employees either
a) know it exists and use it responsibly
b) have no idea it exists and are excited to find out it does or
c) have no idea it exists but don't think they can afford to use it.

(I have used it for two reasons:

1. When we adopted our DD, which was overseas, I couldn't get adoption leave till we re-entered the UK, so I used it for my DS to meet his sister.
2. I tend to take odd days' annual leave to cover half term/Easter/Christmas holidays in a tag team with DH, but this means I'm short holiday time for a longer summer break - so I usually end up having e.g. 1 week AL and 1 week PL.

So many employers have no clue how parental leave is supposed to be used and requested, it's ridiculous. I worked for one of the largest employers in the UK, with a huge HR and legal department. Employees regularly got single days authorised instead of block weeks, leave agreed on the day, not x weeks in advance, turned down point blank by managers or give incorrect info on entitlement... It was a joke. Someone would ask for annual leave as their child was ill, get told no, there's too many off on leave, you'll have to take it as special leave, oh you've already had 3 days special leave this year so it will have to be unpaid parental leave. Not how it is supposed to work. Some managers would just say no can do even if months in advance as they believed it was only for one off events which couldn't be predicted (!) so would be unpaid.

I think you are entitled to it OP, even if they have to give you a different date. Yes, it's not for holidays per season, but the wording of the legislation is so vague that what you are doing falls within that anyway. Even if she is 17, that is irrelevant as it says up to 18. So people's beliefs about whether it is necessary, being a 'good' employee, taking the piss or whatever are irrelevant. Getting ACAS/union/solicitor involved and go back to ask again. I wouldn't give in especially as they've granted it for similar reasons (to spend time with child, whatever that entails) to others by the sound of it.

Update, I didn’t realise this thread would attract this much attention!!! Anyway, I have the Parental Leave guidance from HR, it’s exactly the same as the government website, except they don’t mention deferring or the 7 days to come back to me. So anyway, i’ve texted my line mangager(don’t have the email), and asked when I would receive my letter, I put in all the relevant dates and also wrote that I had requested Parental Leave, as opposed to unpaid leave. Here is the response”. I have already confirmed to you that your holiday request has been refused, it has also been declined on (portal). You will receive a letter in due course, unfortunately HR are currently short staffed”. Ok, ladies, do I go to HR or what?

I thought from the start that parental leave in order to go to Florida would not be granted to a person who worked term time only. It's not a reasonable request.

Yes! Reply to manager to confirm -again- that you have not submitted a holiday request but that have advised them of your intention to exercise your statutory right to unpaid parental leave. Tell your manager that you will discuss the issue with HR to seek clarification but will keep them ( manager) in the loop.

Ask HR for a copy of your grievance procedure as well.

It's not a holiday request, the purpose is irrelevant. Reply that you think they haven't understood that it's a parental leave request not a holiday request. And go to HR.

Reasonable or morally right doesn't matter.

ITS LAW. ITS LAW. ITS LAW.

She is entitled to it. End of.

Its unpaid leave, some of you are acting like she's asking for extra paid leave and a unicorn that shits gold.

She's asking for what she is legally entitled to. Save your moral arguments for another thread.

Yes, OP time to contact them.

I thought from the start that parental leave in order to go to Florida would not be granted to a person who worked term time only.

Why would you think that? Part time workers are legally entitled to the same rights and leave (pro rata) as full time workers.

Leave is by arrangement with your employer and this employer has denied parental leave for the dates the OP has requested. If I was the employer I'd refuse it too.

Being short staffed does not allow them to ignore the law.
Go straight to HR OP and liaise with them, your line manager clearly hasn't a clue.

Yes to HR
And yes to correcting their incorrect statement on type of leave

Leave is by arrangement with your employer and this employer
Your employer still has to stick to the law.
They can't say oh, I know your contract has 22 days AL but this year it doesn't suit me, you can have 10.
They can't say, oh, you can't go on maternity leave now, you'll have to wait 3 months.
And they can't say, sorry you can't have parental leave ever.

Have just come off the phone to HR, she hasn’t seen any forms and didn’t know anything about it! It may be in a pile somewhere waiting!!!
She has taken all the details and will come back to me, but not today.
I’m sure my position in the company will be untenable now, fortunately I can afford to be out of work for a short while, other people may not, there does need to be some clarity for other employees . I really didn’t think this would grate on some people, i’m sorry if you think because I don’t work all year that i’m less of a person than you and need less rights, but hey ho, everyone is entitled to their opinion

The point is that parental leave should be used responsibly and it's not meant for holidays to Florida when it's cheaper than going at another time. I can just imagine if a teacher took a month's parental leave for a jaunt. Which according to some they'd be quite entitled to do on a regular basis if they had a large family of children. It's unheard of AFAIK.

The point is that parental leave should be used responsibly and it's not meant for holidays to Florida when it's cheaper than going at another time.

That's not the point at all. It can legally be used for any reason including a holiday if the purpose is to spend time with a child.

Yes teachers could well ask for it - maybe a lot do. They could. I suspect they don't because a couple of weeks unpaid would be financially difficult for a lot of people. Still legally entitled though.

How many times does it need to be said?
Patental leave is to spend time with your child. That's it. No conditions except mutually agreeable time. No ifs no buts. Its law.

Ops manager and thier manager have royaly cocked up.
HR are going to be pretty pissed they did not forward the forms nor reply to op as per rules.
Now its a damage limitation exercise for HR to stop op taking them to tribunal.

Keep us updated op. Good luck with HR having more sense in this.

Good luck OP. I work term time only (and am unpaid in the school holidays although like you my salary is annualised). I also get 14 days paid annual leave to take within term time. I, like you, am entitled to take unpaid parental leave during term time should I need or want to. It is the law. You are perfectly within your rights to make this request. Stick with HR and keep following the process through. Sounds like your boss has no intention of sending the letter. Is your request cheeky? Undecided. End of the day the law does not specify locations for where parental leave must be taken. Nor should it. What if you had a small child who was recovering from cancer and wanted to take them overseas, I bet people would take a different view then.

Fwiw I really hope they grant it. I mentioned it before but get in touch with "working families" they're really very good.

If you think you're going to be forced to resign then you should raise a grievance to make them fully aware of what has gone wrong - with the expectation that this does not happen for other employees.

IT'S LAW. IT'S LAW. IT'S LAW.

Yes, we've established that. So is my "right" to chuck overhanging hedge cuttings back over the boundary into my elderly neighbour's garden. Doesn't stop it being a dickish thing to do though.

The Government definition of Parental Leave

Eligible employees can take unpaid parental leave to look after their child’s welfare, eg to:

spend more time with their children
look at new schools
settle children into new childcare arrangements
spend more time with family, such as visiting grandparents

The OP has said repeatedly that she is not teaching staff.

It is misleading to say she should be using PL "more responsibly" (not sure what that even means, but it's very harsh) when the Government doesn't aim to mandate or dictate what the PL is used for, they just give a few examples on the website.

If the OP was planning a trip of a lifetime just with her DH and was using PL for that purpose, that would be irresponsible. But it is specifically a holiday with her DD. Making it affordable for her family budget is responsible. The money they save can be put aside for their DD, rather than in the pockets of hotel and airline companies.

Well that sucks OP. I would document everything, dates, forms etc. Your employer hasn't followed through at all within the law. Are you in a union? Can you speak with a union rep and take someone you trust with you to discuss the fact that your employer has not taken the lawful course of action?

Here's what my employers guidelines on PL is: Note it doesn't even state in any terms under what circumstances it is to be used (holiday, sickness, quality time) but I'm still entitled to it.

Entitlement

This entitlement applies to all children born or adopted after 15 December 1999.

Births: employee parents or those with parental responsibility (as defined by the Children’s Act) may take up to 18 weeks’ unpaid leave during the period ending with the child’s 18th birthday (from 5 April 2015);

Adoptions: employees adopting a child may take up to 18 weeks unpaid leave during the period ending with the child’s 18th birthday (from 5 April 2015). In the case of multiple births or adoptions, 18 weeks leave is available for each child.

In the case of disabled children, the entitlement is up to 18 weeks and parents may take their parental leave entitlement up until the child's 18th birthday.

Employees must have twelve months’ service with the University prior to the commencement of leave.

Employees must give a minimum of three weeks’ notice prior to commencing leave.

The maximum leave to be taken within each year is limited to 4 weeks.

Leave (other than where the child is disabled) must be taken in blocks of one week. Part of a week (e.g. a single day) will count as a complete week.

Where a child is disabled, leave may be taken as individual days and will count only as days.

Fathers have an entitlement of up to 4 weeks’ leave immediately their baby is born or child adopted. This entitlement is subsumed within the Paternity and Adoptive Leave entitlements as set out above.

Leave for part time staff is proportionate to the amount of time worked.

The Head of Department may postpone the taking of leave (other than leave as set out in i) above) to an agreed future date or period subject to organisational needs. The taking of leave will however not be postponed for more than six months.