Dismissal for gross misconduct

[JinJin]

Hi, my daughter aged 25 - a graduate with a masters started on a graduate training scheme with a big company 5 months ago. A dream job, company car etc. Lots of travel within UK. She got two speeding tickets whilst travelling for work and was offered a speed awareness course in lieu of points. She took the course (unbeknownst to us or her employers) on a working day. When asked to explain her whereabouts later on, she lied and said that she had been working from home. Most of the team do work from home at least one day a week. She was found out in her lie; and dismissed for 'gross misconduct'.
I totally know she was wrong. She does too. But this label of 'gross misconduct' will follow her throughout her life. She has not committed a criminal offence.
Has anyone any advice?

[bamboostalks]

Just do your best to reassure her that it's not the end of everything. We all make mistakes. She must be feeling dreadful and down. She's must dust off and start over. I think she shouldn't even mention this if she can avoid it.

[DameMargaretOfChalfont]

OK OP - I think you've had enough abuse on here.

Your daughter did wrong but, as her mum, you're worried about her and are asking for help. I get that.

What I suggest is that:-

1. Your daughter quickly gets herself another job that isn't going to insist on past job references. I'm actually talking about a job that traditionally has a rapid staff turnover such as Bar work, restaurants, fast food take aways etc. The reason for this is the next job will require her P60 which, when you read my second point, will be clear.
   
2. Your DD becomes creative with her CV and erases the last 5 months. This can be done if her P60 doesn't show a blue chip company as a previous employer.
   

And, FWIW I agree with others that your DD was stupid but you're her mum and I respect the fact that you want to help her.

[specialsubject]

what this story says to me is 'arrogant person who thinks they are above the rules'. Both the speeding and the lying shout that, plus the belief that the employers were born yesterday.

The result is not harsh at all. She can get past this but she needs to show a big character change.

the speeding points disappear eventually IF she now realises the law applies to her. She hopefully realises that she won't get away with telling anyone she has a clean licence.

And as I assume she wasn't a paramedic, no excuse for speeding.

some lessons are not taught anywhere except the university of life. She's a bit delayed with her learning but I'm sure she'll get there. Meantime it is time for humble pie on toast and to clear the slate with lots of honesty.

[JinJin]

Thanks bamboostalks, and redbinneo be ashamed. Are your children perfect?

[DorisLessingsCat]

You are not really listening though OP. You are determined to think your DD has been hard done by, which is understandable.

But really you would be more useful to her if you helped her move on, not dwell on perceived injustice.

[hollieberrie]

Haven't read the whole thread, but poor girl. We all make mistakes and in 10 years time it wont seem a big deal at all. Its harsh but there are rules and she has learned from it. I did some silly things in my 20s, most of us do, and when it all comes crashing down we become better and nicer people for it.

I agree with taking a break - how about some volunteering or teaching abroad? Don't despair, it will work out in the end. Wishing her good luck.

[Ilovecrapcrafts]

I feel for her. Stupid mistakes are massively regrettable. I agree she should lose this on her CV and move on. Best of luck to her. We all have hard lessons to learn sometimes

[MadMum2015]

I think in the long run this has the potential to provide a valuable life lesson but of course it's horrid while going through it.
Strategy for the next 12 months is to find a way of getting back on a similar career path to the one lost though probably not a formal graduate programme.
I suggest temping in some job where skills may be vaguely transferable - and then from next April (new tax yr) apply for more formal "career type" roles, using her temp employment as referee.
Be realistic, the chance of a blue - chip grad scheme is probably gone but there are ways around it. And I mean this nicely (as looking back I was a hideously immature 25 yr old) but really try to ensure she doesn't have the pomposity you let slip with your shelf stacking comment. I get that you're highly stressed but honestly, an MSc and a company Beemer doesn't give someone the right to look down on more junior employees.
Honesty is the main lesson to take away from this of course but humility is fairly key too!

[Whatthefucknameisntalreadytake]

I wouldn't lose it from the cv because it could make her look dishonest again if she it comes out later, plus she needs to be able to big up the skills and experience she got during those 5 months, not pretend it didn't happen. I have known people get sacked for worse and still get other jobs in the same field if they are convincing at interview. I've also known people lose jobs because they weren't honest in their application...that also counts as dishonesty.

[bloodyteenagers]

It's not about being perfect.
It's about admitting you fucked up and learning few mistakes.
In this case it's slow your speed because next time, well speed kills.
And about honesty. She had chances to say look I fucked up and now I have to do a course. She didn't she took the wrong turn and
Lied.

She can continue to lie to possible employers knowing in some fields they do chat. Or she can be honest.

My child. I would tell them to grow up, accept responsibility and be truthful... But then they come to me with the initial scenario I would have said be truthful

[Nydj]

DameMargaretOfChalfont, I totally disagree - I can't see any posts where the OP has received abuse. Posters have had to be blunt in telling her that her daughter's actions did constitute gross misconduct and that her repeatedly downplaying her daughter's responsibility was not doing her daughter any favours but that is not, in my book, abuse.

[GrannyWW]

Both you and your daughter need to understand that minamising and feeling hard done by is actually incredibly damaging for her long term .

[Bubblesinthesummer]

Ok thanks everyone. Just to be clear she only booked a half day off - so not stealing time. Of course I am defensive! Some of you have been sympathetic but honest - thank you. End of conversation.

She lied and wasn't avaliable for work when she should have been.

Not sure what you expected tbh. It was gross misconduct and virtually every employer wold see it the same way. She has only been there 5 months and there would now be a serious lack of trust now.

It is a hard life lesson, but playing it down and saying it was extreme isn't going to help her learn from it, she, like you would think she was just hard done by.

[manchestermummy]

Just to echo what everyone else has said: she shouldn't have lied about working from home. It's very simple. I've been on a traffic signal awareness course (apparently one is supposed to stop at red lights...) and there was tons of choice as to when to attend the course. I went one evening after work.

That won't be the first time in her working life where something comes up during the working day and she needs to appreciate that.

[magiccatlitter]

It was only 5 months; just leave it completely off her cv.

Humans are liars by nature. Getting caught and punished just makes people become better at it.

There is nothing honest about business today. Employers lie all the time and nobody blinks an eye.

Society rewards the best liars; politicians, executives, solicitors, actors.

Lying turns a profit and honesty gets you trampled over.

[bestguess23]

The thing to be wary of if she plans to leave it off her CV is that she never lies on an application that asks for a complete work history. The top of many industries is very insular and if she were to get found out at a more advanced stage of her career she could do much more damage. In my industry if you have any success everyone will know who you are, be wary of her industry is similar. Unfortunately, people talk. As an employer I would rather someone was honest and humble having learned from mistake but my industry tends to attract slightly left-field applicants anyway.

[OllyBJolly]

A very cynical view, magiccatlitter. I don't agree. We just hear more about the dishonesty. I work with many lawyers and almost all of them are honest and ethical. The politicians (of all colours except UKIP - don't know any) I know are in post because they genuinely want a better society.

She can't leave it off her CV until it's well in the past and it's less important. She could lie and say that the speeding offences led to dismissal because she was still on probation (and I'd worry as an employer that a probationer might lose her licence and give me a bigger headache). That is still dishonest but plausible and more acceptable than breaching employer's trust by lying about being at work.

OP, a former colleague lost his job when he was jailed for GBH. He was a very promising junior at the time. He came out of prison with serious drug issues. He is now back in his field in a very senior role. He turned it all around within 10 years. That is obviously a lot more serious than your daughter's situation but proves that this doesn't have to affect the rest of her life.

[Fizrim]

She will be asked why she left her previous post. Although the speeding convictions will not come up in any employer check, if she has another driving job she will have to declare them.

I would suggest temping for a bit. And I do agree with the others that minimising what she has done (whilst understandable) is not helping her in the long run.

I think your comments about shelf-stacking lost you a lot of goodwill there, OP!

[HappilyMarriedExpat]

Some quite harsh posts here - who on here can honestly say they have not fucked up at work? I can't.

And despite a squeaky clean driving licence for twenty(ahem) years, I also managed to get 2 speeding tickets in one absolute bitch of a day on the way to a client's premises and back again. I appreciate that the OP's DD's issue is the dishonesty rather than the speeding offence itself, but some of you sound very holier-than-thou towards the OP who is only doing what any of us would do.

OP I feel very sorry for your DD. If it was me I would front it out and be honest. Maybe volunteer abroad for a bit and come back to join the next grad training round. I personally would not feel comfortable with removing those five months from my employment history, because it feels like dishonesty by omission even though I am a solicitor and we are all accomplished liars apparently I wish her (and you!) all the best.

[DorisLessingsCat]

Magiccatlitter I don't agree with you but even if the world worked that way you are pretty stupid to risk a dream job for the sake of 1/2 a day's leave.

Reminds me of the guy I worked with who got sacked from a £100k a year job because he faked a £75 expenses claim. Ten years later that £75 has probably cost him about £1,000,000. idiot

[HappilyMarriedExpat]

My friend's brother was imprisoned for supplying cannabis whilst still in his teens. They threw the book at him, my friend suspects it was because he was from a naice middle class home and had "no excuse". He did his time, was suitably contrite and now has a lovely wife, 2 kids, runs his own business and has a house in London.

People come back from these things. As my DM always says, worse things happen at sea

[Ladyconstance]

As PPs have said, the company's approach is perfectly reasonable and fair. You seem almost indignant this happened to her. What does your DD make of it though? Is she as agitated as you? It's her life after all, you can't control her decisions to lie to employers and she rather than you will need to deal with the consequences.