Grievance Upheld. But what now ?

[Oblomov]

I had a grievance at work. Flowery wrote me the most fantastic 3 page letter. Eventually, after 3 months of chasing, I got a response.

Their letter was 3 lines long.

Upheld. That my manager has been asked to re-write my job descrption, which can be discussed at my imminent appraisal, re more challenging work that I had 'requested'.

And THATS IT.
No reasons for upholding it. No recomemndations.

And actually I didn't specifically ask for more challenging work. I just used that as an arguemnt in discusssion: I have always performed well, nothing been said before, I have asked many times for more challenging work, and more work .. thus that pooh-poohs your comment that my performance capability is in question.

It all seems naff. And a cop out.

But is it up to me, my responsibility to come up with a list of what I want done ?
But why is this all down to me ?
I did nothing wrong. was discriminated against, bullied and not managed properly. The senior manager who helped me fight my case has it in writing that it has been agreeed that the "core problem is that her manager is a crap manager and has mismanaged her".

So why is it up to me to do all the sucking up and requesting ? I don't even know what I need to put this situation right.

Sorry oblomov, I really wasn't trying to demean/lighten it, and it sounds worse than I imagined. I just meant that you sound so defeated, when in actually fact, you have behaved professionally, they have admitted it (kinda) and so in theory that should be the end of it. I agree though it seems more complicated and there may be repercussions in your daily work. Is there any chance you could get a FT job somewhere else if PT hours are the barrier? Any possibility you could do that while looking for something mroe suitable?

Its o.k. stealth.
I am only prepared to work part time. It is a priority to me, for me to be able to drop off and pick up ds1(7) from school atleast some of the time. Ds2(2) is our last child and I would rather not work at all than work full time.
I have worked part time since having children and am not prepared to work full time. I know the market is very bad at the moment, and I am in no position to be choosy at all, but full time is just something I am not prepared to consider.
well I did it for a couple of months, but that was only becasue the clients accounts were in such a bad way and desperate, and she agreed that I could go back to my job description of part time, once I sorted the main mess.

You don't need to leave immediately, now, if you are not in a position to do so.

After the conversations we have had, and the incidents/conversations you described, I think your employer fully intends to get rid of you as soon as possible, yes. And unless there is some major change, that means your employment there isn't going to be sustainable long term. I think it's a question of how/when.

As we discussed on the phone last time, you wanted to stay, or, if that wasn't possible, you obviously need as decent a settlement as possible given the job market.

I don't think you should go back to them about the comp agreement they offered you. It was a really rubbish offer, which you (rightly) rejected, so if you then ask to resurrect discussions, they are not going to increase it. If you ask for a compromise rather than them asking you, you're never going to get anything decent.

Ultimately you'd like to stay. Ultimately I think they are going to get rid of you unless something major changes. So you need to let them act. Do all you can to improve things yourself so you are the reasonable one. Lots of Sandripples' points are good. Make sure everything they are doing wrong or unreasonably is documented in correspondence, including this latest thing. Make sure everything also documents you making every reasonable attempt to work this out.

Very best case scenario; things improve drastically, they back off and you can stay in work, at least long enough to sort something else out. Worst case scenario, if they want to get rid of you they will have to pay more than the rotten two months they offered you and/or take much longer and more reasonable procedure than the HR person indicated they would do.

Thank you flowery.
You didn't say what I expected you to say. I read your post to dh. And I explained to dh that I was expecting you to agree with me. And then I read your post to him and he too was suprised.
I was thinking that it might be best for me to say that it had become untenable. And to basically suggest that I was looking for a years money and to see what their re-action was to that.

I declined their poxy offer. But i never told them that if they made me a semi-reasonable offer I would have considered it. Plus I am now in a stronger position thta i was before. They have upheld my grievance. That makes me have more bargaining power. Or in theory it should. Doesn't feel like it.

I have to work in this shitty environment, until I find another p/t job. And then I just leave. That lets them right off the hook. Just get another job as if none of this had happened ? And i receive no monetry sum.
As we all agree, Tribunal would be awful.

I'm sorry for dithering and being so choppy changey. I just can't work out how to get the best out of this , for me. or how to get the most money out of them atleast.

You are not going to get lots of money from them by approaching them and asking for it. You've refused one offer, they didn't increase it at the time. If you now go back and say actually you are interested in leaving if they pay you off, what's their incentive for increasing their offer by very much if at all? It gives the impression that you are desperate to leave, so they won't think they need to pay you too much at all, if anything, as you are bound to resign soon anyway.

You need to give the impression you will be staying and making a pain of yourself. For them to offer you lots of money they need to be under the impression that getting rid of you will be difficult. If you ask them for money it implies you are close to resigning anyway, so not difficult at all for them, therefore no need to pay you lots.

If you genuinely feel you can't go on, by all means go and ask if you can reopen negotiations, but just bear in mind that they will only pay lots to either avoid a sticky tribunal situation or a very long drawn out performance management process. So for a decent payout they either need to believe you have a genuine legal claim and every intention of following it, or that you are going to stay and be a millstone round their necks.

1. i have to say that making a compromise agreement (presume in writing) and threatening you with disciplinary in this way is outrageous - unless the offer is excellent which it isn't.

1. Disciplinary action can't guarantee to get you out, you need clear and reasonable improvement objectives and tools and help to achieve them, or the next action is automatically unfair - so this is a bluff

1. You are right to think that they don't wnat you - that doesn't mean that this is rational or acceptable

1. Flowery is right, say nothing, and let them make outrageous threats and fools of themselves before you pre-empt a defence that will give them clues as to how to respond /prevent formal

1. If they are negotiating, they are negotiating - you can say that you want to stay in the role - a good one to put the wind up.

1. a compromise agreement without proven underperformance (they have said your performance is fine so far and you have proof, so cannot reasonably have any reason to 'correct' your work competancy anyway) is a clear constructive dismissal act

1. If you think out is the best route, then start negotiating - if you have been there a few years and think finding a new job is going to be hard AND have a grievance upheld AND their response to their bad management is a negotiation, you should be talking in multiples of ANNUAL salary, not monthly.

1. HR expecting dismissal in this way shows evidence that they haven't taken your concerns on board, and are colluding with the manager's viewpoint unreasonably.

I think you have a case that is strong enough to expect to be offered much more than you have been - in a clear case of bullying of a member of staff who was only in post for nine months in one case I worked on, the settlement was £15K even when there were no grievances upheld, no clear management failure (as there is if you think that they think you are underperforming yet you have had strong performance reports)..

Just remember that the first thing that always happens in these circumstances is that you start to believe that they couldn't possibly behave like this unless you had done something. This is where you use a zen technique of FU YB - don't take on their version of events to 'help' them out. What they think of you is their shit, and exposes their misjudgement. HR here are behaving absurdly and they need their arse kicking.

oh and BTW - that senior managers treat you badly through this is because its by its nature adversarial, not because they really don't like you - you can expect HR and management to resist this stuff, stay calm at each stage and expect to progress to the next - if you get a surprise so be it, but they won't move to being nice until its over - but they may then have a lot of respect for you - I have seen this happen many times when a manager has painted a just awful picture of someone all over the shop - usually without evidence, just opinion, and slowly but surely over many meetings, despite what is happening overtly, senior HR people are thinking 'this manager is a total total dickhead, I can't believe he has carried on in this idiotic way and wasted my time, my staff's time and cost us a bloody fortune just because he couldn't say 'could you improve here.. and here'. even when they think this HR directors and seniopr mangers will still toe a relatively company line so don't interpret everything at face value - and remember they upheld the grievance which is a pretty good sign they are thinking along the lines I mention above.

Thank yopu Flowery and Heroine.

"So for a decent payout they either need to believe you have a genuine legal claim and every intention of following it, or that you are going to stay and be a millstone round their necks." said Flowery.

Well, yes. I guess thats the crux of it isn't it.
AM I prpepared to go to tribunal ?
HELL YES, LETS GO.
Thats because I am a pitbull, and I believe in things being done properly. morals and principals. christian, treating others as you wish to be treated.
BUT, I guess I am naieve as to how awful it would be. Stressful. May drag on for 18 mths to 2 years, or so people say. And they would dig every piece of dirt on me and paint me out badly.

But do I actually have a case. That is the real question. But as Flowery says, staying as a millstone in the long term is not actually an option. So actually, It would APPEAR that I don't even have a choice.

I have to go to tribunal. But we can't afford legal fees. I will phone our home insurance to see if its covered today, but i fear not.

Op I can't offer any advice, you have plenty if excellent advice already.

Just wanted to say that I completely and utterly understand what you mean when you say it's like an abusive relationship, I used those exact words to describe my working relationship with my old boss. It's heart breaking when you work hard want to do well and everything you do goes unrecognised or worse stillnot good enough. I think it's hard fir someone to understand unless they've been pushed to the edge.

Good luck, I too struggled with leaving and stayed much longer than I should. It effected my confidence in my abilities but like all bullies it is them who are afraid. I hope you get some sort of deal you are happy with. Once you have made that decision to leave you will not be able to stay.

I don't know any of the details so like the rest of us (with the exception of flowery who you have spoken to privately) none of us can say if you have a strong case or not, and we certainly can't predict that you would receive a huge settlement either from increased compromise negotiations or from a tribunal. Most tribunals settle for figures in the low (single) thousands so unless you think you have been victimised because of your need to work part time as a working mum (or something similar) then as you say the ends (of a tribunal ruling) may not be sufficient to justify the means. And it IS stressful to chase (I have done this myself).

But on the face of it they do seem to be making more of a hash of it every way they turn, so your case is strengthening.

flowery talks very good sense. The only thing I would add to this is that if it were me I would probably send your HR person an email stating that you are very upset that he stated that you had no choice but to accept a compromise agreement because otherwise he would get rid of you within a few meetings and that you would kindly request he obtains legal advice before proceding along this course of action. I would then have a follow up paragraph reiterating that you are very commited to the role, consider that the discipline case was totally without merit on most of the major points, and are very concerned that the upheld grievance that you made has still not resulted in clear constructive actions which the firm will commit to undertake to support your continued success in your role. somethign like that, but as I say I am not involved in detail so it may not be an appropriate step...

Whilst things can drag on, tribunals should happen fairly quickly the application has to be within three months of losing your job, say... - my usual advice (given and recieved) is to expect aroung six months - including to get through the internal procedured - you don't have to be working in this period for that employer either. If they try to dismiss, and you appeal etc there are usually strict guidelines as to how long each employer stage is.

I think you need to play a bit of chess here - you want them to drum up the thinnest of disciplinary cases, and come up with dismissal unreasonably, so it might be best to stay quiet and see if they act on a dismissal action - or better, use low-level tactics (eg taking your name of the company website, photo off photoboards, try to overload you with work etc) all that is grist to the mill if you note and record all of it.

At some point I expect they will up negotiations, but the above poster is correct to say that unless there is a clear trigger, you must always say that you are keen to work, that actions are unreasonable etc. but still progress your complaint. Once you break into negotiations you need to be at a strong point and ready to ask for a high amount as as soon as you respond vaguely positively, the game is on, and you need to tit for tat to raise upwards. I have been in one where the initial employer offer was one month's salary that became more than one year's salary after about five bits of to-ing and fro-ing and 'lets adjourn'...

get as much advice as you can - you need to give the impression that if you stay you will continue with your grievances.

The 2 year delay figure sounds like when the claim is split between the county court and the Employment Tribunal perhaps.

Hi
I a new member and have an employment issue. I started a new part time job with a local county council (very large employer) 4 months ago as a job share. My job sharer has been in the job for nearly 2 years full time before taking maternity leave, yet receives greater supervision than me when she returned from her maternity leave probably because she does not possess prior relevant professional experience. My previous work experience although relevant to the job role and is greater than that of my jobshare, bears no correlation to the current work that is carried out. My line manager unreasonably believe that I should be able to pick up things quickly because of my professional background and, despite being unemployed 18 months immediately before the job started.
I was shocked when my Line Manager during a probation meeting 2 months into my employment, presented to me a series of complaints of underperformance mostly exaggerated and unsubstantiated which she saw fit to back up with a letter handed to me at the end of the meeting. I was also told I was abrupt and abrasive and had a negative demeanour and that I misrepresented my previous work experience, all of which I object to and feel is unfair. Hearsay was also relied upon that I had thought the job was beneath me which I absolutely deny saying or even alluding to. There was also a personal comment that my husband (who also works at the council, was cynical and my manager commented also that my handwriting was scruffy. These comments are inappropriate and gratuitous. Having researched bullying websites, I filed a claim for harassment/bullying. However my claim was not upheld very recently, and was told that my manager was performing her role in managing me even though there had been a couple of unfortunate comments. The underperformance claims were not dealt with in the harassment claim, as they only took into account my manager's conduct of the probation meeting. I require advice as to whether to put in a separate claim for grievance in respect of the underperformance claims. I feel that I have not received adequate training and support to enable me to carry out my role. I do admit to a couple of her complaints but the remainder are not reasonable or fair.

My line manager has a reputation for being a bully but no one else is prepared to support me. Since putting in my claim no one in my department will chat to me openly and the rest of the department form part of the manager's coterie. We work in an open plan office and I feel isolated. Everything I say and do is monitored so it is not comfortable.

I know that I can not take this to tribunal due to the length of my employment. Ubder the current eficient savings in the public sector, I am under no illusion that this job will last anyway notwithstanding that my manager has it in for me and even more so after the harassment claim. Do I just keep my head down and wait for the axe to fall (probably within the next month or so), or do I put in the claim for grievance regarding the underperformance claim. Financially I have nothing to gain and I accept that I will not get a reference from the employer.

If any of you can provide some advice,it would help me decide what to do next. Thanks