Headteacher bans skirts as if too short they 'put girls at risk'

[Northernlurker]

here

I was pretty apalled by this - banning skirts because they give out 'signals' and the girls are putting themselves at risk by wearing them????
Thankfully my daughter doesn't attend that school but I have e-mailed the school address protesting at these comments. What does anybody else think?

ISNT - I don't think they are doing it to be propositioned by random middle aged men. I think a lot of them do it to appear more mature (even if it doesn't) and I do believe some of them want it to have an effect on boys their own age (assuming we are talking about 13-15 yr old boys and girls). However, if it has an effect on boys their own age then it will probably have an effect on most of the male population.

I can remember being a teenager and I was definitely not that innocent. From the age of 13 I knew about boys, sex and most things that go with it. Although teenagers view things from a naive perspective they do have half a clue what they are up to.

I live next to the school in question.

My daughter would not be allowed out in the skirts some of them wear.

When I was at school the teachers measured our skirts with a ruler. It was farcical.

Trousers seems to me to be a fantastic idea.

People who dress in a sexually provocative way get more sexual attention. This is not appropriate for school.

"You don't like teenage girls much by the sounds of it, NG."

Actually, I do. I get on very well with them. I'm not sure how posting that some of them are very sexually aware translates to not liking them....or thinking that they are slags, come to think of it.

As for sexual harassment at school, incidents we know about are dealt with. I am not sure how you would like us to deal with incidents that we don't know about.

NG, the girls in your school are getting in trouble with the police for offenses of a sexual nature? I am struggling to follow where you are going with your posts TBH. Please can you clarify what on earth you're getting at now.

Ali you are talking about why "you think" the girls are dressing like this. I "think" that many are simply dressing that way because it is the fashion. No more, no less.

"When you hear what some 14 year olds get up to, the idea that they might wear a short skirt to attract sexual attention is, in fact, pretty tame. "

There's something in there about teenaged girls, and its difficult to say what (but hints strongly at sexual "misbehavior"), and it doesn't sound very pleasant to me.

NG why don't you come out and say what you think rather than hinting.

ISNT, you suggested that people saying that some girls wear short skirts to get sexual attention was the adult projecting their view of the world onto the child.

I said that my experience showed that it wasn't me projecting and that wearing short skirts was quite tame. You suggested that I was going off exaggerated reports from the girls. I pointed out that if the police were involved in more extreme incidents, it was unlikely to be exaggeration.

By the way, I don't think that a teenaged girl wanting sexual attention has to actually be having sex (slags!! ). Of course they want to explore their sexuality and appear desirable to the opposite sex.

"As for sexual harassment at school, incidents we know about are dealt with. I am not sure how you would like us to deal with incidents that we don't know about."

What is the school's pro-active policy on sexism in school? It's a very simple question.

Let's try this, your sentence with just one word transposed: "As for racial harassment at school, incidents we know about are dealt with. I am not sure how you would like us to deal with incidents that we don't know about"

Can you imagine any educational professional saying that? It would be received very critically as evidence that the school wasn't taking the need to promote racial equality seriously.

ISNT: "NG why don't you come out and say what you think rather than hinting."

I don't think that I've been hinting at anything and I'm a bit confused as to your comments about something not sounding pleasant and sexual "misbehaviour" Crossed wires perhaps?

You said:

"You are viewing them with the eyes of an adult and ascribing meaning to their style of being, that is simply (usually) not there. Can't you remember being a teenager?"

Suggesting that the sexual element to their attire is not there, and something that I'm ascribing to them.

My comment was to say that 14 year olds can indeed be sexual in ways beyond wearing a short skirt.

To counter the suggestion that what I'd heard was teenaged blather, I pointed out that if the police were involved, it was unlikely to be exaggeration. Police being involved, due to, of course, the under-aged nature of those involved.

Hope that clears that up.

NG your comment "When you hear what some 14 year olds get up to, the idea that they might wear a short skirt to attract sexual attention is, in fact, pretty tame. " led me to believe that you had less than flattering thoughts about the girls. I said that maybe I had been a bit strong, before you responded. It was a gut reaction to the sort of language used by the sort of people who make statements like the one I quoted just now.

The crux is

That you say that teenaged girls want sexual attention (can you define what you mean by that? and from who?) and that they wear short skirts in order to communicate to boys (men?) that they want this sexual attention, and they do this knowingly.

My stance is that the vast majority of teenaged girls wear short skirts because its the fashion, and it's what their friends do. That the "sexual attention" that they are seeking (if any) is pretty much innocent, and that they are generally pretty horrified when they attract "sexual attention" as they go about their general business.

I further think that teenaged boys will be attracted to teenaged girls irrespective of what they are wearing.

Reading this thread one would imagine that in our society, a short skirt is an absolute signal of sexual availability, no matter who is wearing it, and what they're wearing it with, and what the situation is. This is not true.

So the police are involved with minors in your school having sex?

If the police are involved then presumably they are having sex with adults, not other teenagers?

My school has a public and open policy against any form of harassment. Any behaviour which makes you feel uncomfortable. Dittany mentioned earlier calling names...as I said, this was dealt with as an incident of bullying, although others might like to see it called sexual harassment due to the particular names used. Our behaviour policy is also very clear that sexism is unacceptable.

PSHE lessons deal with relationships between the sexes, appropriate behaviour, unacceptable behaviour etc.

And if the girls are sexually mature, and sexually active, and "know what they're doing", then a short skirt is neither here nor there really is it.

They will still be that way, and the people they are getting "sexual attention" from will still be that way, irrespective of the state of their skirts.

I think the issue is with this statement made by NG:

'Like I said, short skirts attract sexual attention. It is hard to argue that this is not a motive for at least some of the girls to wear them like that....wanting Jake in 12A to find them hot. How do you tackle the attitudes of boys who see a short skirt as an invitation to sexual attention when it is an invitation to sexual attention, just not from them?'

That is at the heart of teaching young people about sexual harassment. A sexual harassment policy (like the NUT's for example) would be proactive. It would make sure that boys understood that there are appropriate ways of giving someone you desire attention and that if that attention was unwelcome, they should desist. It is not the responsibility of women or girls to make some choice between appearing to have no sexuality or alternatively being judged as consenting to sexual attention from everyone. That is a non-choice.

And, just to say this again, most women and girls do not choose their skirt length in order to gain sexual attention.

Dittany: "Could you be more specific about what these extreme incidents are."

Why? To satisfy some prurient interest? No, I can't be more specific.

ISNT: "That you say that teenaged girls want sexual attention (can you define what you mean by that? and from who?)"

Attention of a sexual nature. Being eyed up. Being made to feel that they are sexually attractive. 'Nice legs' comment from Jake. By their peers. By boys that they fancy.

"If the police are involved then presumably they are having sex with adults, not other teenagers?"

I believe that it is illegal to have sex with someone underage even if you are a teenager yourself.

Technically it is illegal, but the CPS have a policy of not prosecuting except in exceptional circs - they figure that if there's only a couple of years between the couple, it's allowable, 10 years for example, is not.

"I believe that it is illegal to have sex with someone underage even if you are a teenager yourself. "

What HB said.

For the police to be involved, it would normally mean that the male is older, by some distance.

And surely if the girls at your school have been having sex, while underage, with older men, then it is the men that are at fault. They are the ones who have broken the law.

"When you hear what some 14 year olds get up to, the idea that they might wear a short skirt to attract sexual attention is, in fact, pretty tame. "

If a 14yo is having a sexual relationship with a man old enough for the situaiton to warrant police attention, I personally would be looking long and hard at that man. Not casually referring to "what some 14 year olds get up to".

And again I would say that in situations like this, the length of a skirt is the least of anyone's worries.

Telegraph blog on the subject:

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/rosiemurraywest/100043518/why-short-shrift-for-short-skirts-could-be-bad- news-for-womens-rights/

I live int he town
to be fair, when (male) teachers have tried to say to pupils ''your skirt is too short, it is non-regulation'' the girls havve fired back ''you shouldn';t be looking, you perv''.

the school have tried and tried to enforce correct uniform and I feel they have een driven to this.

the skirts are ridiculously short. And the culture is for 12 year old girls there to wear ridiculous amounts of make up.

it is an extremely popluar Cof E school which is constantly oversubscribed.
I would be delerious with joy f my child had got in. I'd make her wear a clown suit if that was what the uniform dictated!
These kids are getting a top-of-the range edication for free! They are bloody lucky to be there.

Get a grip; it is a pair of trousers they are being asked to wear.

If the school had said: ''we are banning trousers and girls must wear a micro-mini, I could understand this outrage.

It's not outrage about trousers.

It's outrage at the implication that girls who wear short skirts are inviting men to sexually assault them.

No problem with trousers. Very sensible attire IMO.