On the subject of apperance/being good-looking

[SolidGoldBrass]

Some people are basically better to look at than others. This is kind of a genetic accident just the same as being very clever, or very athletic.
I'm not suggesting BTW that there is any kind of absolute standard of good looks, what is regarded as a really good-looking appearance is culturally influenced, but whether what is preferred is height, thinness, fatness, light skin, dark skin, big earlobes or a sticky-out navel, these are things that some people are just born with, the same as a really powerful ability to calculate numbers, run fast or sing with perfect pitch. We can all improve to an extent on what we are born with by exercising, studying - or by the use of cosmetics, clothing etc - so what I'm wondering is whether it's maybe misguided to consider it 'unfeminist' to either pay attention to one's looks beyond the basics of being clean and tidy, or to condemn people who are 'good looking' for regarding their good looks as a workable asset in the same way that a person who is clever or musically talented or good at sports would do?

"If it was natural selection we'd all be very good looking because genes for good looks would have been selected in already, given that humans have been around for quite a long time now."

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of it like that before.

Perhaps you are right- there is plenty of bollocks talked about genetics, and this could be part of the same discourse.

I'm not suggesting that men like a certain type of woman for reasons of natural selection, I was responding to cornsilk's post about alpha cave men.

We have evolved and we are about more than aesthetics. If I believed otherwise I would be a very unhappy person.

GOODASGOLD - I don't agree.

Dittany look at the men on the ads for razors, shaving foam etc. They are not short and fat.

dittany i'm not entirely sure that you're right on this one...i think that this is a consumerism lead prerogative, and i suppose if you believe that consumerism and patriarchy are inextricably linked then maybe...but there are guys out there having implants to get a six pack, so it's not just women who have body dysmorphia as a result of relentless societal pressure to conform to a pornographied body type (in the west).

having said that people have always self mutilated to conform to a culturally based idea of beauty...look at the incredibly painful process of tatooing with a lemon thorn (on the face, legs, abdomen etc) in the pacific.

I have never ever bought a woman's mag for this very reason. I don't conform to the "norm" (so if the natural selection theory were strictly true, I wouldn't be here!)

But I've seen these mags in staffrooms, friends' bathrooms and I can't help myself but look. Always feel dirty after...

I like the mags. I know that the women in them are not realistic - it's all airbrushing and make-up.

Although I rarely buy them...read them at the hairdresser though.

There was a great mag for women about 10 years ago - anyone remember Frank? Not a feminist mag (I used to read Ms. before it went under) but Frank had some interesting/ cerebral articles and any fashion ads were subverted with boxes over the women#s faces or obscured in some way through frosted glass/ shower curtains or some such.

dittany, try telling someone hooked on steroids the the drive to look strong is not as unhealthy as the drive to look thin.

people die of that too you know.

i'm not for second denying that women are under more pressure in this respect, but men are catching up and i htink the roots of this are buy buy buy.
consumerism running rife again.

there is a pressure for women to look a certain way - there really is.

but cornsilk brought a good point up - genetically speaking are we kind of programmed ( not all of us but most) to like a certain form?

i mean do we have it in us from being cavemen to prefer a 'healthy' thinner form for the purposes of procreation?

This whole thread need a

Natural beauty is all about symmetry, and things that biologically draw one person to another. Anything aside from that is media influence (silicone boobs, plastic lips etc)

dittany, anorexia isn't primarily about media/societal influence...it is much more about family dynamics ime and imo.

anorexia is a mental illness isn't it?

And men can be anorexic as well.

Dittany: Interesting point about natural selection and good looks. Thing is, natural selection does not, so far, seem to have favoured equality in human beings - while the ability to run fast is a good thing in evolutionary terms ie one can escape from predators, thousands of years of evolution have still left us with lots of people who can't run very fast. Same applies to academic ability, musical talent and appearance - 'good looking' people are prized and celebrated because not everyone is good looking. If we all looked the same, there wouldn't be any kind of grading/status attached to appearance.

Also, what I'm really thinking about is the cultural prizing of people who are good looking without making an effort and indeed the condemnation of those who are seen to be making too much of an effort to appear good looking.

Dittany - 'It's also ablist and racist' You forgot to add ageist to your list. Think of all the women presenters/actors/singers/cabin crew/receptionists who are put out to grass when they start to look older [and therefore in today's society unattractive]. Some people - male and female - actually, to my eye, are better looking when older, or have the luck to remain younger looking for longer. Our society whilst accepting that older men can be handsome does not extend the same judgement to older women. I am not a fan of 'mutton dressed as lamb' but see around me, on a daily basis fine, stylish, beautiful women, smiley, white haired 'everyone's favourite granny' types, indeed all sorts of older women who are easy on the eye.

My main objection to the pressure put upon women to conform to a standard idea of female beauty is the wasted time and money that is expended in pursuit of this objective, without even taking into account the pain, worry, shame and stress that it engenders.