Should pregnant women be allowed total control over their bodies? Where do the unborn child's rights come into it?

[Bumperliouzzzzzz]

Just wondering. I've never read anything theoretical on the matter and am not completely sure where I stand. However I was talking to a colleague today (am 18 weeks pg) and was mentioning wine (I've actually only had 2 glasses so far this pg) and she said 'Oh I thought you weren't allowed to drink when pg?' and I started on a rant (well actually we had a discussion) about woman's rights during pregnancy. I was saying that it is my body and I can do what I like with it, though obviously I don't.

What say should/does a father have in the matter? If I do drink when pg DH gets a bit twitchy, and he won't let me dig in our allotment. Now I am happy to have the excuse not to really but I resent being told what to do. I take heed of my DH because I care about him and believe that he should have some say and he is just worried, but I don't want to be nagged about what I should/shouldn't be doing.

Should the unborn child's rights come first or is it a case of my body, my choice? I think I am mostly resentful of the fact that it is a bunch of men (usually) politicians, DP's who tell us what to do when they have no idea of the effects of being pregnant.

What are your thoughts?

It really bugs me to see a silhouette of a pregnant woman in a round sign with a red diagonal line through it on bottles of Bulmers cider.

Excessive alcohol can raise the risk of foetal alcohol syndrome. Having no alcohol is unncessary. Makes me mad I tell you.

Anyway, it's your body so I reckon it's your choice what you do when pregnant.

For me it's a case of my body, my choice. Otherwise a woman is relegated to the status of incubator if she loses her human rights, and the fetus is not yet fully human and part of the world, iyswim?

I also have a big issue with the way the phrase 'unborn baby' has entered common parlance actually. It's my understanding that it comes from the anti-choice movement and emotionalises pregnancy over a woman's rights over her own pody.

Incredibly difficult question.

Legally, a woman can do as she pleases. She can drink as much as she likes, she can smoke as much tobacco as she likes, she can go diving, rock climbng, sky diving and can get a job as a hod carrier for all the law cares.

MOST women don't do this. They moderate their behavior for the sake of their unborn children, within reasonable levels for the life they have to lead - for example, I stopped drinking entirely but I did continue to ride my motorbike as I couldn't get to work without it. My Auntie and Uncle, who tried for 15 years for the one child they now have and suffered 9 miscarriages, thought I was a disgusting human being for being so blase, and if they were in charge of making the laws governing pregnant people's behavior, pregnant people would lie on a sterile foam bed for the 40 weeks a pregnancy lasts, and be fed a fibrous balanced vitamin/protein/complex carbohydrate mulch.

Unfortunately, when we talk about making 'laws' so that 'they' can't do that (give their children FAS and low birth weight) we forget that we live in a representative democracy, not a direct democracy, and as we know, our representatives do not always do as we want.

I was asked by a 24 year old man "Are you allowed to ride a motorbike when you're pregnant?"

I'm afraid my reply was somewhat caustic, and ended with me sarcastically begging him not to tell my husband I had obtained shoes and left the house.

Well, it depends on when you think that an unborn child becomes a fully fledged human being, with the rights that should go along with that. Is it conception? (presents difficulties for fertility treatments) Or is it at viability? And when is that anyway? or is it birth? And should at any point the rights of that human outweigh the rights of another(the mother)and if so why?

And then you have the issue of whether something that we may feel to be immoral, say drinking to excess during pregnancy, should be illegal. Are morality and legality nesessarily linked?

My personal thinking...and I wouldn't expect any legislation to be passed on what I personally think....is that once you are pg the baby comes first. Obviously there are a million shades of grey here, and I really don't want to bring terminations of pg into this.
I also think the father has no right to any say in the matter...but I did have tests done in pregnancy that I wouldn't have had if DH hadn't wanted them/been bothered, and I did respect his wishes (to a certain extent) when it came to things relating to his "unborn" child.

Hope that make some sort of sense. I'm not expecting anybody to agree with me.

Appologies for the use of "unborn child," BoF, actually I think you are right, I just couldn't think how else to word it.

well, along with rights, I guess you get responsibility.
So, yes, I don't drink when I am pregnant - but I resent people 'telling' me what I should and shouldn't do. Give me the research, facts etc. and I will choose responsibly.
No-one is 'allowing' me to do or not do anything...
(MIL would disagree strongly... )

Agree with BOF's point about unborn child. Is foetus a technical term throughout the pregnancy (you wouldn't think I'd done this before would you?).

I'm inclined to go with my body my choice. Once you start legislating you get into dodgy ground regarding rights to terminate etc.

My sister is still smoking while pg, though I believe she has cut down. Now I am an ardent anti-smoker, can't stand people smoking around me, but my DH thinks it's really not on that she smokes while pg and that really gets my hackles up for some reason. While I loathe her smoking around me or my DD I find myself defending her right to smoke while pg.

When I was having a discussion with my colleagues one pointed out that you could be prosecuted (male or female) for deliberately doing something that causes the foetus to die (presumably after a certain gestation), e.g. if someone injures a pg woman and causes the death of the foetus that is a particular crime, but I pointed out that things like smoking and drinking have not been unquestionably proven to cause damage to the foetus. And until then if I want a glass of wine I will have it. (Just to point out the colleague wasn't having a go, we were discussing the issue).

Foetuses have no rights. And it belongs to it's mother alone until the moment it's born.

Women should have total control over their bodies.

Just as a point of interest

I understand that men who do not have healthy lifestyle (or are older but that's a differnt conversation) are more likely to have below-par sperm, which in turn can lead (amongst other things) to miscarriage.

I don't see calls for laws saying that fertile men should stop drinking alcohol competely and stop smoking etc etc.

The woman is the more obvious person as she carries the foetus, but the actions of the male prior to conception are not without consequence.

The question in the OP - pregnant women should have control over their bodies, yes of course.

I may be making this up but I am sure I read somewhere a few years ago that somewhere (possibly an American state) tried to ban smoking, drinking (basically any 'dangerous activities') for woman of childbearing age, in case they were pregnant.

And there was definitely this case where Utah are trying to impose a bill whereby a woman who has a miscarriage who is deemed to have engaged in reckless behaviour can be prosecuted for murder.

pregant woman's body her choice. Once you start to say that pregnant women can or can't do something where does it end? What sanctions would you put in place if a woman does something she shouldn't? Do we need special prisons for women who put their babies at risk? Who decides what a woman should or shouldn't be able to do? Which risks are or aren't acceptable? Its not just a case of whether or not an unborn baby/fetus has rights. IF they do have rights how do these rights balance against the rights of the mother?

for any woman blamed for a mc

That independent article is way scary.

It makes me realise how lucky we are here, it really does.

"When I was having a discussion with my colleagues one pointed out that you could be prosecuted (male or female) for deliberately doing something that causes the foetus to die (presumably after a certain gestation), "

I'm not sure this is true, is it? If someone attacks a pregnant woman and she miscarries, the assualt is against the woman not the foetus.

Interesting point ISNT.

For me it is kind of distilled in the argument that having children is a choice. Forgive the reasoning here, I only really starting articulating this today, but I have had a former boss say 'well it's your choice to have children'. True maybe, but it is not my choice to be a woman who bears the children (and has their body ruined beyond repair and maybe even gets a lifelong illness in the process - that is a whole other conversation). And really it is only in the last 50 or so years (how long has the pill been around?) that we really have been able to choose to have children, until then for most women it wasn't really a case of 'choice', being pregnant was a consequence of having sex (something else not always been a choice for woman - still isn't for many).

There is a crime to do with unlawfully inciting an abortion or something.

There was a bloke who put drugs in his wifes tea (or something) to make her miscarry and they did him for it.

Will have a look see if I can find it.

Most of us feel immense responsibility for the foetuses growing inside us but that is completely different to allowing an outside force - the state? male partners? who? - to have legal control over our bodies.

Unborn feotuses are part of the mother's body until birth. Asking the state and society to help support us in our sense of responsibility (by providing maternity leave, legislation about facilities for pg employees to sit down etc) is one thing, but shouldn't lead to the state taking ultimate control over our bodies.

Also, how on earth can it be policed? Mothers who take addictive drugs or drink to alcohollic excess are generally under the care of SS anyway, and may have babies taken into care. How can you police whether a woman drinks wine in her own home?

Finally it could lead to women deciding not to declare moderate / minimal drinking for fear of prosecution - with the risk of terrible medical mishap if a Dr has the wrong onformation.

Can you imagine the humiliation of being refused half a pint of shandy in a bar by some 19 yo bartender - as I believe happens in some U.S state?

here

procuring drugs to unlawfully cause a miscarriage.

God, yes, BleachedWhale- I can envisage being hideously humiliated for having a pudgey stomach: how would they even know?

I am continually surprised when people talk about some kind of pregnancy or childrearing behaviour being 'against the rules'. I teach undergraduates and they really think there are 'rules' based on incontrovertible scientific proof. God knows how they will cope with the realities of parenting!!

You might find this site interesting. There is a conference coming up in June looking at the increasing regulation (formal and informal) of pregnancy.

www.parentingculturestudies.org/seminar-series/seminar5/index.html

Yes the level of risk aversion that women are supposed to apply when they are pregnant is ridiculous.

Every single think you do has people raising their eyebrows "ooooh should you really be doing that?". i got clobbered at work once because i ate some prawns for lunch FFS.

Pregnancy is a natural state though and when things don't go well it is usually down to medical reasons, not because the woman had a glass of wine or a cigarette or went up a ladder or ate a small piece of soft cheese. Yet women are supposed to follow this absolutely draconian set of (often unfounded) rules in order to "be on teh safe side"...

(Actually this reminds me of the other thread I'm on at the moment where women also are supposed to follow unfounded draconian rules to be on the safe side.... I am seeing a theme deveoping here)

The government for example, are not capable of legislating about what pregnant women are 'allowed' to do.

Most studies only found FAS to be increased in alcoholics, saying little to no alcohol should be drunk during pregnancy is completely unfounded but used as another moral stick to subjugate pregnant women with.