How CAN you be religious if you are a feminist?

[SolidGoldBrass]

Given that misyogyny is absolutely inherent in Christianity, Islam and the rest (even when they try to dress it up as saying they 'revere' women and women are 'special' it;s still about women being defined by men as not quite human), how can a woman follow any of these myth systems without accepting that she's less than fully human and her imaginary friend thinks so too, otherwise why wouldn't it have smashed the patriarchy already?

Well, I'm quite happy for women to believe what they want but would wonder at their choice to believe something that told them they were inferior!

I think that posters on here hold strong views and are listening to other opinions but then stll disagreeing and arguing their POV? Isn't that what we are supposed to do in a debate, honour other people's voices but stick to our guns?

I didn't post thinking you would all go, 'Of course, the Goddess is for me!' I thought I would explain why my spirituality is not distinct from my feminism, that it is based on the matriarchial belief systems of the past and challenges how I live in this patriarchial, capitalist society.

Spsidermama, the school won't be able to police what you believe! You don't have start wearing symbols of your belief, though I do, or 'hippy' clothes, though I do, or patchouli, though I do Luckily as the Christian Church based so many of its Festivals on the Pagan Solstsices etc, you can decorate the house for Yule, get out the eggs for Oeastra, though we have celebrated the Spring Equinox already (against the evidence of my senses as it feels like winter today)

The best thing I did for Spring Equinox was a celebration at Chalice Well in Glastonbury. Chalice Well is a Peace Garden, open to all, whatever path they follow. 'One Source, Many Paths'

Spring Equinox
We gathered at the Well Head, Natasha talked about Spring and everyone stood silent amongst the trees under the Tor as the birds sang around us. Then we all greeted those around us and made that Divine connection into human reality.

It was profoundly moving, my Goddess of the Earth was definately present.
Afterwards around the Fire, people shared their journeys and experiences and all were different and many deeply moving.
There was even a Pagan Christian there, that would have interested all of you, (I hope).

I want to work with them becuase I want to work towards my concept of good with the here and now without alienating people.

And there are positives in faith. I beleive that anyway. Many bad things have been done in the name of faith but so have many good: am not one for throwing abby out with the bath water. At teh very e4xtreme end if we lost our slightly mysogynistic old Vicar we would also lose the service he runs as an article of faith that fills in forms for immigrants to the area who do not speak English or Welsh.

That's not a bad person who should be eradicated (on many levels actually- he is someone who amazed me with his depth the more I tlaked to him about his life, his first duty as a Vicar was to be sent to Aberfan to dig and he tries to base his services on that).

I have stated repeatedly that I don't disagree that teh Church is patriarchal (that does not mean IMo that everyone in it is - I am sure I remember some stats years ago showing not all worshipers at a CofE Church beleived in a God or the resurrection: if they can't get together on that well the rest won't be following) but I honestly beleive more good can be done now by working with what we have and trying to create a balanced entity. You disagree, that's fine.

'I didn't say you were talking about the Abrahamic faiths. I said the religions that were replaced by the Abrahamic faiths worshipped goddesses. Part of the story of christianity is the story of the destruction of the goddess.

You're saying that there were faiths even further back that worshipped a neuter deity. Which were they? I hadn't heard of this. '

I have to go sort the boys but will find some links later Dittany. But the one I mentioned later- Brahmanistic (earliest) Hindu tradiiton is one. I will see if I can find the texts showing that, they make for good reading. (If i fail to return feel free to harass me - Dh in the middle of Uni exams and occupying PC a lot so I forget what I am doing sometimes)

Quick oone then-

'Brahma satyam jagan mithya
Brahman is real; the world is unreal.
Ekam evadvitiyam brahma
Brahman is one, without a second.

Prajnanam brahman
Brahman is the supreme knowledge.

Tat tvam asi
That is what you are.

Ayam atma brahma
Atman and brahman are the same.

Aham brahmasmi
I am brahman.

Sarvam khalvidam brahma
All of this is brahman.
'

Atman is the equivalent of the soul and Brahman (one of them, don't google and find links to the Brahman of the Hindu trinity- I stills truggle tyo get the right one at times and I have a blinkin degree in it all!)is the supreme in Hindusim: it is generless. The things I have read on Indus suggest other than pure mother goddess, for a start the imagery is all phallus based but I will drag it out later.

Concept of Brahman = whatever you say I am that is what I am not. Under that it cannot ahve a gender can it?

And Buddhism- well Buddhism proper (as in the most ancient form) compeltely denied any God (I know it changed, Tibetan Buddhism etc ahs powerful female deities though but all a half to Amhitabha etc). At teh roots it was an atheist faith though. Dhammapada is good on that one (It would be, collected lessons of the Buddha)

Am not sure about Jainism- certainly alst tithankara on Earth (they preach on different planets and you ahve to be reincarnated on a aplcenet with a practising tirthankara to reach release) was male, dont knwo if there were any females- again will grab my book later.

And yes of course omwn could turn their back on the religion.

Point being, to many women the Church is the most important, or one of the most inportant, things in their life and nothing outside will challenge that. isn;'t that the nature of beleif?

So I work within the aprameters on offer. If women here rejected their faith there wouldnb't even be a school for their kids. That's not going to happen.

And my point about the Vicar was that whilst there are negative things ion the established Church there are also many positives. IMO.

In my particular church (fairly liberal CofE) I have never felt or been made to feel my strong feminist beliefs are in contradiction to my faith. I accept that some biblical passages and and lot of the Church's history is steeped in patriachy and sexism -but let's not forget much of that was true of all cultures at the time of writing/ perpetuating it! In the modern context I find my church one of the least sexist environments in my life (and for good measure we now have a trainee woman vicar).

Ah, separation of church and state

I have really mixed feelings about this. I think faith schools should be able to exist, but I do have an issue with them being state funded. But also think that religions who discriminate should have their charitable status revoked.

SpeedyGonzalez you say "Perhaps that's why you see church attendance as 'supporting' bigotry? I would always urge religious bigots to spend time getting to know and care for people who they have prejudices against, and I would say the same for people who are anti religion."

So which am I speedy? Prejudiced or a bigot?

What I am not is the one helping people (by example) to come to a church which supports the domination of women and the abuse of children. Which unless you say "I'm speedy, I'm a catholic, but beware my church condones the abuse of women and children" you effectively are.

Most churchgoers/catholics won't have thought of this at all being too busy just being nice people so it's not like I blame the average person, but it should be something everyone examines for themselves. Accepting the churches attitudes even in a passive way by being openly a member is effectively a vote for those attitudes. One person only has a tiny effect so must decide for themselves how much that matters.

OK dittany, I did try to explain to you before that it wasn't as simple as saying 'god the father means father and mother,' and did attempt to explain that for me is was more of an awareness that God includes male and female seeing as I believe God created male and female in God's image. But I obviously didn't explain this well enough.

Sorry for not coming back and joining in. Have had bad news today so not in best place for it. Have enjoyed the debate though, all the best to you all.

Quickie

'"If women here rejected their faith there wouldnb't even be a school for their kids."

Of course there would. The funding would go into secular schools. The idea of faith schools is abhorrent. '

Agree about faith schools, bane of my life. One of them anyway. OTOH they may well say I am the bane of their life., so hey ho.

there wouldn;t be a school though, land belongs to Church and there's nowhere else to build becuase alla round is greenbelt or golf course. or site of special interest. The other school is already at capacity.

Obv, that's just here but it's the way it is nonetheless.

Madhairday hope nyou're OK dn the bad news isn;t too bad.

Thanks Clarissimo. a friend died unexpectedly, so a bit raw.

I'm sorry. At risk of being somewhere inappropriate to say it, I woill say a prayer for you all X. God bless

Thanks Clarissimo. much appreciated.

Madhair - a friend of mine died 'expectedly' a month ago and I'm still reeling - I can't imagine how hard today's news must be for you . Thinking of you.

Dittany, I don't understand your point about Catholics pretending about anti abortion and anti contraception.

Thankyou NL. To be honest, I don't know how I feel at the moment. nothing feels quite real at the moment. I've carried on with the day, getting ds to Beavers etc, but theres this awareness that something isn't right any more, if you know what I mean. I feel like I want to cry but can't.
sorry to hijack thread a bit

mhd hijack away

You know, the ay you say you feel sounds like absolute standard start of bereavement shock to me. It will need to sink in before the tears come.

Be kind yto yourself and take it as it comes, thats all you can do

Dittany, Sorry, not pretending.