Bid in Lords to overturn move to decriminalise abortion for women

[IwantToRetire]

A landmark move to decriminalise women terminating their own pregnancies could be overturned as legislation is considered in the House of Lords.

In June, MPs in the Commons voted in favour of decriminalisation, with one saying it would remove the threat of “investigation, arrest, prosecution or imprisonment” of any woman who acts in relation to her own pregnancy. ...

But, with the Bill making its way through the Lords, an amendment has been tabled to remove the relevant clause. ...

https://nation.cymru/news/bid-in-lords-to-overturn-move-to-decriminalise-abortion-for-women/

Personally think in both cases the woman has responsibility and is culpable, no matter how desperate, or sad, her circumstances, and that there should be penalties.

Nobody is consistent either, it’s so human.

I remember going to dinner with a bunch of vegans (not a vegan myself but we were all good friends).

One of them (a male no less) went on about how he couldn’t agree with abortion because he’s a vegan. Oh, it made everyone else at the table LIVID.

I admit I too was a little shocked at the time, but it was also kind of hilarious how scandalized we all were

Yes, I'm vegetarian and have been for over 40 years....and I do think we ( me too) are very inconsistent when it come to the value and matter of animal life. On one hand people treat their pets like humans and get really sad when they die, but casually ignore or dismiss the treatements, sufferings and 'intelligences' of other species.

There is a whole department at Oxford university dedicated to researching and developing animal ethics ( some creatures have their young aborted so that humans can have their super soft skin/leather). As humans our tendency is to only think about what impacts us personally, or at most our family and friends, but beyond that people seem to feel no real sense of connection or certainly not responsibility to our wider obligations.

I don't think it's 'hilarious' to be shocked. Nor is it inconsistent to be vegan/vegetarian and pro-choice...whether you're pro-choice or pro-life, it's clear there's a difference between a foetus within the womb and a living creature, animal or human, outside the womb
. I would support animal abortions for health reasons also , and presumably that man would, too. He probably was aware his 'gotcha' isn't that logically consistent.

I strongly agree about favouring species inconsistently. I think we can improve consistency though. Overall I think there has been progress in valuing other species over the last century, at least somewhat.

This is an incredibly disturbing post. You've reduced women down to incubators - making it clear you think our 'role' is simply to be inseminated by men, and produce young, never mind our individual humanity.

You're basically saying that past a certain point of gestation, a woman or girl should have her bodily autonomy stripped away, and no longer have the same rights as any other person. There is no other situation in which people have their bodily autonomy stripped away in order to save a life - no mandatory blood, bone marrow, or organ donation. So why should women have this inflicted on them?

And your argument (that a foetus is a precious human life etc) means that there logically shouldn't be exceptions for rape, incest, age, foetal disability, or mental health issues - a woman or girl who isn't able to procure an abortion in time (for whatever reason) should be forced to carry that pregnancy to term, in your opinion, never mind the hideous emotional toll.

And then what? She's forced to either give up a part of herself - that she didn't even want - at birth, relinquishing baby up for adoption and never knowing if it has a safe life, and knowing that one day it might come to find her. Or more likely, she ends up raising a child that she resents/hates and doesn't want - well that won't go wrong at all!!

No one benefits from forcing women and girls to bear children that they don't want. All it does is cause suffering.

Janice Turner's take in the Times coincides with mine.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/95310d47-d421-491a-bd6d-eb5348a0e79b?shareToken=fa881435ad6a7d9d303e194d2edb7765

I’m a lifelong pro-choice advocate, have defended abortion rights many times on these pages, yet I find this decision — whose passage in the Lords this week was hailed a feminist triumph — viscerally upsetting. It is one thing to argue that police protocols should change or prosecution guidance appreciate that women who abort late and alone often do so in extremis. It is a huge leap to decriminalise the taking of a fully viable human life.

I think that in both cases a baby is killed.

’Penalty’ as such is not something I’d want as a result of either though.

I do think that has to be consequences and penalties, beyond the personal, myself....otherwise it becomes an excusable act.

We can understand how a woman may come to take such drastisc actions, but we still cannot condone them...in my view.

You are completely misrepresenting
Shortshriftandlethal's post. Hyperbole doesn't enhance your argument.

Late term abortion and infanticide are different, though - in the former, a woman is doing something to her own body, or to something colonising her body. In the latter, she is doing something to a human who exists entirely separately to her body. It's an important distinction, imo.

No, I'm not. I'm responding to the content of their comment.

Where have I argued that abortion should not be legal in any circumstance? i haven't..so stop jumping to extremes of ourage and emotion in making things up to fit a certain narrative.

I'm not 'reducing' women, I'm recognising the profound and important role that women and mothers ( female people) play in the communal life of a society. I haven't suggested that becoming a mother is all a woman should do, and I recognise thhat women are individuals too which is why I support legalised abortion ( with limits). I've had terminations myself, but have also had children and both of these experieneces has influenced my persepctive ( naturally).

Personally, I find it concerning and 'disturbing' that someone might think they can do whatever they like, whenever they like, and with no consequence - even when it involves another life ( regardless of wheteher that life is dependent upon them or not). That somehow a woman has no responsibility for anything beyond herself......a sort of automatic diminished responsibility.

A pre -term baby has its own body, it is attached to the mother's body via the umbilical cord.

The baby can support their own life outside the womb towards the end, it is no longer just a parasite.
The mother is killing the non parasite within, before expelling it. Not merely doing something to her own body.

Referring to unborn babies as "parasites" is very ugly in my view, and it does those who argue for full term abortion on demand no favours in the court of public opinion.

Do you really think that the ‘something’ ‘colonising’ her body and hanging on by the umbilical cord, yet with viable, healthy life should it be born, let’s say, a few weeks or days before it is about to be born - or even an hour before it is about to be born - is a thing that can be killed, when a few weeks, hours, or few days later, once out of the body it was ‘colonising’, it would have a right to life?

To me that does not make sense.

NB I do think that if the mother’s life is in danger, she should absolutely take precedent and the unborn, late term baby be killed. But I think that U.K. law already made that clear.

This. I can't believe people are defending abortion so late in the pregnancy- unless for serious medical reasons, but pps seem to be defending it more broadly..

You seem to have misread me, while also not responding to any of my comment beyond that.

I didn't say you thought no abortion should be legal.

You said you feel that: "women ( as biological females) have a very particular role in the wider context of human society", which seems prescriptivist, and a little disturbing given you then go on to say that women should be uniquely limited in terms of their bodily autonomy, in a way no other human is.

And also that "there needs to be limits and boundaries" and "there does need to be limits to the idea that you can do anything you like with what society agrees is precious and important."

You said that past a certain point, abortion shouldn't be allowed as it's the taking of a human life. How can you make exceptions to that for rape, incest, age, etc, and still be morally consistent? And if you're not being morally consistent, why are you making an argument to take away women's bodily autonomy?

As for your last paragraph...it's not diminished responsibility at all, it's that pregnant women and girls are being held to a much higher standard than anyone else in terms of responsibility. No man is forced to donate blood, even if it would save someone's life, so why should a pregnant woman be held to different standards?

This too!

I agree mainly with this. I also think in the UK at least, there should generally be the possibility for someone to get an abortion before the limit. We need to ensure women are able to access during the 24 week period, not take away all guidelines completely

Exactly. Imo it's sexist to allow women to commit murder- because that is what this is, and then say that it's excusable due to pain & trauma. Feminism doesn't mean lowering standards for women. Women may be in terrible mental pain, and the causes must be fought but allowing late term abortion for any reason is not the answer.

Yes, I do think the location that something is in makes a very crucial difference. For instance, a bullet in your body is much more of an issue than a bullet in the wall beside you. Location is important.

Personally, I find it nonsensical that you apparently think a fourteen-year-old girl who has been raped by her own father and is heavily pregnant should be forced to give birth, or criminalised for obtaining a late term abortion.

What does that do, but cause more suffering? Who does it benefit?

She needs to be able to have access before. We HAVE to tackle child sexual abuse, improve social services etc. I don't think such a teenager in such a horrible situation should be prosecuted but I don't think full decriminalisation is the answer either.

Then in order to be morally consistent, considering bodily autonomy is no longer a factor we're worried about as a society, then we should enforce mandatory blood and bone marrow donations, and possibly organ too.

Obviously late term abortion is not the ideal, and should be avoided wherever possible with better contraception, or early abortion, but I have to think that rare late term abortions are better than deciding that women don't have a right to bodily autonomy.