Safeguarding concerns about floor-to-ceiling cubicles in mixed-sex primary toilets Scotland

[IKnowWhatAWomanIs]

A friend’s child attends a primary school in Scotland, East Ren, where they've recently refurbished the toilets. They've turned one former girls' block and one former boys' block into gender-neutral/mixed-sex facilities. They've kept the basic layout (separate rooms with multiple cubicles) but removed the urinals from the ex-boys' one, so now both are just cubicles. Crucially, they've installed floor-to-ceiling doors on all the cubicles.

This feels like a massive safeguarding red flag to me: full-height doors mean almost no adult visibility or quick oversight. If a child collapses (e.g., seizure, asthma attack, diabetic issue), tries to self-harm, or is being bullied/abused inside, no one would know until it's too late. Partial-height doors allow better monitoring while still giving privacy.

There is a woman, whose username I forget, on here that is an expert on single sex toilets & I would love to say the magic spell so she appears to give her opinion.

What kids are being exposed to because of the gender zealots shows once again that safeguarding concerns go out of the window in the name of 'trans' inclusion.

The gaps isn't just about children. Its pretty much everyone. Children might be less likely to have a heart attack as a pp said but they can still faint, have fits, asthma attacks etc.
When people feel ill, toilets are a place they commonly go to get a bit of privacy, close their eyes for a second or catch their breath. It's a common place to get taken ill.
It comes up on a first aid training and most emergency services staff will know this.
You also have to remember that someone can collapse against a door making it harder to open and get to them.
The number of people who collapse and need help in toilets is higher than you might think and even if it were a small number, it's also a small number who might need public defibrillators or bleed kits but we still put them out there.
I recognise that people might think it's a decent compromise solution but it does have an impact on safety and that does need to be considered.

Thank you. It is common sense isn’t it.

However I have been researching toilet safety for several years and the evidence and academic papers also back my conclusions.

11% of cardiac arrests happen on the toilet (straining places extra pressure on the heart). It’s also not just physical health, it’s mental health too and drug overdoses. There’s also a problem with young women being spiked.

I have spoken to paramedics and they say when they enter a home of a lone person who doesn’t respond to them, they are likely to find them in the bathroom.

What is frustrating is that venues have defibrillators, their doors can open outwards but a person can be having a medical emergency and no one knows. One mumsnetter told me this happened in a cardiac ward to a relative. Now wards are supposed to be single sex, there’s even more reason for this not to be happening.

I’m curious as to why most loo doors in the U.K. open inwards - I’ve just been on holiday to the Netherlands (mostly Amsterdam) and the norm there seemed to be outward opening. Apart from the safety aspect (which I probably wouldn’t have realised were it not for Keep) it meant there was more space for the sanitary bins.

A well known TRA account.

It’s so you don’t whack anyone in the face on exiting. You may notice ambulant cubicles (at the end of a row) do open outwards for the ease of getting out for a frailer user. If you have small kids these are handy to know about too when trying to get you all out! Ambulant cubicles also have a proper pull handle for people will limited dexterity and a push bar. Inward opening doors are supposed to be able to have the ability to open outwards in all designs in an emergency precisely to get the occupant out who has collapsed. This is in regs in England, Scotland, NI and Wales.

The problem comes when people try and compensate for the area in front of the cubicles being ambiguous or mixed sex. The most obvious solution is to leave the normal plumbing in place and make everything full height. This is not in the regulations - a mixed non-domestic toilet should be it’s own room not a cubicle.

The advantages of a maximum 150mm floor to door gap was listed in Standards at the time of 1992 Health and Safety legislation (ventilation, supervision, prevention of misuse, cleaning). It’s not that big a gap - but fulfils such an important role for an occupant at their most vulnerable. The most important part of any rescue is knowing someone needs rescuing in the first place!

Just the smell alone from mixed sex floor-to-ceiling toilets 😫At least in open cubicles there is some air flow. I can imagine it leading to children holding on and not actually using the toilets when they need to - already an issue for many in schools. Plus the bullying towards anyone who did emerge from a ‘smelly toilet’ with no plausible deniability.

For someone with epilepsy they are routinely advised not to lock the bathroom door when they have a bath or a shower, and not to have a bath if no-one else is in the house. If they had a choice of public toilets someone with epilepsy or otherwise at risk of sudden collapse is definitely safer in a cubicle with a floor gap.

Lack of ventilation and being able to clean properly (soaking and draining) is a major problem. Unisex toilets are discouraged by microbiologists in hospitals.

Look at the list of microbes in this report 🤢:
https://salus.global/article-show/pathogen-findings-raise-concerns-about-move-to-unisex-hospital-facilities

I thought for this to be allowed they needed to fully self contained cubicles (with sinks) opening onto a corridor, this doesn't sound like an arrangement which can lawfully be mixed sex?

Schools are not part of the 1992 legislation. They are subject to the 1974 legislation.

Agree. Full height doors and cubicles are far less of a safeguarding risk than mixed sex facilities with doors and cubicles that don't stop men and boys shoving a phone through the gap in order to film females.

Boys in new-build schools where I worked discovered that you could open these doors from the outside using a 10p piece. The toilets were single sex, so the victims were other boys.

There was no exterior door—the sink area was open to the corridor—so, depending on the configuration the victim could be visible from the corridor. [The lack of an exterior door was supposed to stop vandalism.]

The last time that I did supply in one of the new-builds—over a year ago—the HT had finally managed to organise to have the locks replaced.

Re: safeguarding.

My aunt died of a brain haemorrhage in a toilet cubicle at work. It might not have made a difference, but if there had been a gap at the bottom of the door there's a chance she might have been found sooner.

This shows how crucial it is to get design right. I know of a school case where a child desperately needed assistance and they had to tell staff to go and get special key to open the door. In other cases in nightclubs, it’s been far too long getting firemen out to wrench the door open. It’s not just emergencies. It can be about getting trapped.

I am very sorry about your relative. I know a famous actress has spoken of a similar incident. The woman in the ladies next to her rescued her. I know someone who was on their own and felt ill, went to the toilet and had a stroke. His wife came back from shopping to find him unconscious in the bathroom. Sometimes it’s just a cruel matter of being unlucky. But health and safety laws and design should try and mitigate this as much as possible.

@Keeptoiletssafe

Thank you.

Hi I recently visited my child’s proposed school and they have the floor to ceiling toilets only. I am not happy at all as feel it is a huge safety risk for a child not to been easily seen in case of an emergency.
is there anything that I can do to try to encourage them to change the design? have I any hope?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgzgldvv47o

I saw this news the other day and seems relevant to this thread. Not sure it helps you @FloraandSun though as the issue (according to the court) was the toilets being mixed sex not the floor to ceiling doors. I can't imagine why anyone would think entirely enclosed cubicles for primary age kids is a good idea.

It's really tricky with schools because I'm not sure there's a perfect solution.

My single sex toilet cubicles were hell. Other girls standing on the toilets and looking into other cubicles, the sheer level of bullying, and because of the floor and ceiling gaps, absolutely no privacy. I spent my entire time at secondary trying to avoid them and trained my bladder to not go between 8am-4pm. I've suffered with UTI's for my whole adult life, which may or may not be linked. I'd also hold poo for hours and hours because the level of bullying over a wee was bad enough.

The idea of having actual privacy in an enclosed room sounds great, as does the ability to have my own sink to help clean up after period disasters. But I appreciate they can pose a risk.

At college I found toilets which no one else seemed to use, in a rarely used area.

For me personally it's a toss up between the likely but relatively minor risk of a girl screwing up her bladder because she's too afraid to use the loos Vs the very unlikely but serious risk of being taken ill in a floor to ceiling cubicle.

@Keeptoiletssafe do you have any data about how many deaths occur in public toilets each year, and the relative risk of each toilet design? I'm trying to see how big an issue it is in reality?

@FloraandSun Are you in England? Up until now, the Department for Education have seemed to allow these designs. In the design guidance they asked whether toilets were unisex or single sex in the specific design brief. They also stated toilet doors have a gap of 5mm unless the school justified otherwise. I have asked them for risk assessments and equality impact assessments and they said they ‘don’t hold them’. This year, the designs have completely changed in their guidance and mention things like sanitary protection in the ‘suite’ of toilets for girls.

I expect a lot of schools have designs that are now no longer allowed (they shouldn’t have been allowed in the first place). The Scottish case can be quoted as the shared sink issue is a feature of these designs that was rightly shown to be of detriment to girls. The only way toilets can be off an open corridor is if that corridor is single sex now, otherwise the sinks are in a mixed sex area.

SchoolsWeek estimated up to 25% of schools may need to sort their toilets out.

When I asked the Department of Education who was responsible if a child came to harm in one of their designs, they said it wasn’t them and depends on the type of school - usually the governors.

Even in the new guidance it is still optional to have a 5mm toilet door gap. This is not enough. The reason given in the past, was based on the height of a mobile phone as boys were taking pictures of girls. You will find toilet design is often based on trying to mitigate for male behaviour.

You can use this picture if you like. I have campaigned for safer toilets in schools, especially for those who are medically vulnerable and girls. The Department for Education have had a school report of mine and the Building Safety Regulator are also aware.

I would ask the school (nicely) when they will be changing their toilet designs and, when they do, please consider a maximum 15cm floor-to-door gap as listed in past British Standards as advantageous for hygiene, ventilation, prevention of misuse, and supervision (making sure children get noticed if they are having a medical emergency).

@Babyboomtastic How many pupils die in school toilets is unknown but unfortunately it does happen. In recent cases there have been delays and cpr has been unsuccessful. I won’t speculate because it is wrong and unfair. I don’t want to discuss individual cases. What I can say is that the Department of Education do not collate data on what happens in toilets - they said they could not give me statistics as it would take too long to even find out if they could collate sexual assault or rapes or death data.

There is no easy answer with toilets. They are always going to be a problem. What I would say is you need to design for the most vulnerable. I will cut and paste from an old article I wrote and you can decide. Apologies to be so blunt but nothing would make you decide quicker than trying to resuscitate someone, which is why I do this.

@Babyboomtastic Actually I have looked back and see I have already mentioned a lot of stuff so I don’t want to keep repeating myself.

I am also aware that this thread has been linked to other social media so don’t really want to discuss certain other statistics I have that involve other reasons than medical.

Here’s a long cut and paste from some medical stuff. I don’t think I mentioned some above (apologies if repeating):

Medical Concerns
If a pupil feels nauseous or ill (physically or mentally) they are likely to head to the toilet. If they collapse, they are more likely to survive or avoid suffering long-term damage if someone notices to be able to rescue them.
Amongst the population in general, there are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of
cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet room. Whilst there’s no accessible data where people
collapse, it is known there are around 100,000 hospital admissions due to heart attacks in this country, equating to
one every five minutes. It is estimated there are 400,000 people in the U.K. with undiagnosed heart failure. There
are also around 100,000 strokes in this country, equating to one every five minutes. Around 1% of people in this country have epilepsy and around 80 people are diagnosed with epilepsy each day. There are many other conditions that lead to collapse where you need to be noticed and accessed quickly eg. diabetes and asthma.
To put health condition figures into perspective for UK schools there are around 9-12 children with epilepsy in an
average secondary school. There may be another 2-3 with diabetes. Several hundred children are diagnosed with strokes each year. Every week on average 12 people under the age of 35 are lost to sudden cardiac death.
A new school problem highlighted by the University of Bath is medical incidents due to spiked vapes. Testing hundreds of confiscated vapes in 38 schools in England revealed 1 in 6 (16.6%) contained spice. Spice can cause wide range of dangerous side effects, including cardiac arrest. One headteacher said “Dealing with the aftermath is challenging, especially when you have to explain to the child’s family that something potentially life-threatening happened while they were in our care. It’s equally distressing for their friends who witnessed the collapse and for the staff involved—it’s their worst fear realised. What do we do if it happens again and we’re unaware? One incident
occurred on the playground, where many people were present to help. But what if it happens in a bathroom cubicle,
and they are alone? It would only be when they didn’t show up for class, were marked absent, and we started
searching for them, potentially finding them too late. We’ve been fortunate so far, but I believe it’s only a matter of
time before serious injuries or fatalities occur’.
The DfE understands the important of quickly getting emergency help - it now expects all state funded schools to have at least one defibrillator on site because defibrillation can increase the survival rate by as much as 70%. But knowing the person has collapsed in the first place, and therefore getting help as quickly as possible, is vital. Like
wearing a car seatbelt, toilet door gaps can make the difference in those critical moments.
Schools must ensure arrangements are in place to support pupils with medical conditions. Some children and staff,
such as those with epilepsy, may be considered disabled under the definition set out in the Equality Act 2010, and
schools must comply with their duties under that Act. Pupils with medical conditions that may occasionally lead to collapse should have care plans. It has been known for these plans to specifically exclude the use of the enclosed disabled toilets for the very reason that no one would be alerted to a collapse. For example, for people with diabetes
or epilepsy there can be a period of confusion pre-collapse, so the person’s awareness to pull an emergency cord is compromised. For these people, and for also for the safety of all those one-off medical emergencies, it is imperative that school toilets should have door gaps.
————————

I should have clarified that it is extremely difficult to get statistics on how many children die in toilets because it would have to be reported as such and details can be withheld. The design of the toilet would need to be disclosed. I have managed to find out the design in some cases and none that I can clarify have had a door gap. It is also impossible to tell the numbers that would be prevented from harm or death due to a door gap because there’s no way of knowing how many near-misses there were. Certainly the woman I saved would not be down as a near-miss statistic - the paramedics took her away and I don’t even know if they knew she had been inside the cubicle. I have a lot of anecdotes from people who say they saved a child/adult who was on their cubicle floor. Only occasionally do the near-misses make the papers. I have parents of children with medical conditions tell me they are so scared for their children going to school toilets, particularly with diabetes and epilepsy.

Some other stats I have on a range of toilet locations:

In all toilets designs in stations, no one has been murdered in the last 10 years. One person dies in a British station toilet roughly just over one every six months on average. Most single sex station toilets will have a door gap if following the Network Rail design because they design a 12.5cm standard for supervision.

In hospitals, most deaths of doctors by overdose, are in hospital toilets.

It is always my problem that I want to mention multiple individual incidents where it is so obvious that the design played a part but it’s not fair on the victim to re-hash their story.

I think one of the most telling things is that multiple businesses have been set up to make money selling alarms specifically for private toilet cubicles or rooms in schools. It’s the privacy that’s the problem.

That's because you don't have daughters some of whom will have reached puberty sharing a space with boys who are also entering puberty and can be very nasty and unpleasant around girls. It's a safeguarding issue for the girls who could be sexually assaulted in a locked cubicle with a floor to ceiling door. The school may be breaking the rules here, depends where the sinks are, but whether or not it's a safeguarding issue. Primary age boys are also quite capable of setting up cameras in those cubicles as well.
There is no reason for having mixed sex toilet facilities.

I'm currently on holiday and twice I've had to use fully enclosed toilet cubicles while out and about. I'm claustrophobic and absolutely hate being closed in. My heart pounds and I feel very panicky just thinking about being trapped inside. These have both been 'gender neutral' facilities. They can fuck off!

@Keeptoiletssafe thank you, I’m in Scotland. Is there a sensible workaround in the meantime in case the issue with doors can’t be addressed immediately (which I’m guessing it won’t). I’m trying to think of anything I can do. My daughter is only 6 and has medical condition which means risk of collapse. Can I ask that she always has to be accompanied or something? Have you heard of any good solutions? Thanks so much.

Hello. You are not alone in being worried as many parents are. I sent information in to the consultation on this in Scotland so I am hoping it will change. They are going to have to do something with toilets so they might as well go the whole way for health and safety for medically vulnerable girls and boys. I know there was a mumsnetter who was concerned her child was being used to accompany a child with epilepsy to the toilet and her child had no idea why. I know children who tell the teacher before they go and the teacher times them.

For your daughter’s condition is there a charity or a nurse that could advocate for her to discuss how important this is? Some of the charities will have information on workarounds. Can it be classed as a disability as this may allow for more help?
In the school is there a unisex toilet opposite reception? Could this be the one she uses so that there is someone close by to open the door after a few minutes?

I apologise that a lot of my information is based in England and it’s always difficult to work out which bits are still applicable to the other countries.

I will pm you.