Keira Bell on GMB right now

[CanISeeYourLicence]

Can be caught on +1.

She is so articulate and clear. Really impressive.

Is it psychosis...?

The key question here is where is the threshold between someone doing something as a result of a firmly held belief and a delusion? Many (most? all?) children and young people who experience gender dysphoria start from a position of belief that they have a gender identity that differs from their sex. That everyone has an inner gendered soul. This belief in gendered souls can be firmly held to be true, similar to someone having a belief that god/Allah (etc) exists.

My understanding of psychosis is that it requires delusion. Using religion as an analogy, it's not considered delusional to believe that god/Allah exists. However, it likely would be considered delusional to claim that the reason you [insert an action that leads to harm] was because god/Allah requires it. But does that mean it's psychosis? Not necessarily.

was a vulnerable child indoctrinated by authority figures into an unscientific cult at a young age and is now having to live with the consequences?

This seems more of a fit than psychosis. The belief in gender identity is the foundation. The desire is to change the body to match the belief, even where it leads to harm is delusional. But it's not psychosis if the delusion was enabled by the adults that the child trusted, including so-called medical experts. The closest fit is that of cult thinking writ large.

I think it's the later and as they still appear vulnerable I can't help having sympathy for them.

Agreed. Unfortunately the Great Pronoun Debate will never be solved. After previously using preferred pronouns for adults (never children), I now avoid pronouns completely. I don't want to upset vulnerable children and young adults by using sex-based pronouns but equally, I'm not going to use words that show my allegiance to a belief I don't hold.

When I use my zero-pronoun approach both IRL and online, it seems to go unnoticed, which is exactly what I'm aiming for. When I call it out as an approach that I take, it causes upset.... gender identity believers are offended that I won't use preferred pronouns and many "GC" people tell me that I'm gaslighting myself and/or offending them by implying that their sex-based pronouns approach isn't "respectful". In other words, I can't win 🙃

Many (most? all?) children and young people who experience gender dysphoria start from a position of belief that they have a gender identity that differs from their sex. That everyone has an inner gendered soul. This belief in gendered souls can be firmly held to be true, similar to someone having a belief that god/Allah (etc) exists.

That's not at all how I felt as a little girl with what was gender dysphoria [if it exists, I know it is a contested term.], BonfireLady.

I had no concept of 'an inner gendered soul' [being in a very Catholic environment, I had a very strong and clear concept of an inner soul, but it wasn't a gendered one].

I saw what life was like for girls, and that I would never fit into to it. I didn't want to dress that way, sit that way, talk that way, wear make-up that way, get one of the jobs that girls got, get a boyfriend and later a husband that girls got...
it was much more down-to-earth than related to souls.

I perceived the imposition of the gendered ID 'girl' on me as a limitation to my potential as a human being, but I don't think the sense of self that rebelled against stereotyping was an 'inner soul', I think it was just a strong sense of being entitled to be the equal of boys, and that, in my child's mind, and in the context of a sexist society, meant not being a girl. Therefore, somehow, being a boy instead...

Fortunately I found ways of being a different kind of girl, and grew up to be a different kind of woman, and I think part of that was due to knowing that I was not a boy and could never become one, so I'd better get on with forging a life for myself as a female... no preferred pronouns at school, no PBs, no 'literal genocide', no 'gender affirming surgery', no 'most marginalised', no alternative but to sort myself out.

I was lucky.

Thank you for sharing this 💐

I'm reflecting on what I wrote and thinking about my daughter. Her experience of not being sure if she's a girl or boy seems very close to what you said here:

I saw what life was like for girls, and that I would never fit into to it. I didn't want to dress that way, sit that way, talk that way, wear make-up that way, get one of the jobs that girls got, get a boyfriend and later a husband that girls got...
it was much more down-to-earth than related to souls.

(It's her school that has pushed the message of gendered souls as a way to make sense of these feelings. That's not how they explain it but it's the net effect of their messaging, where they teach children that it's possible to "identify" as the opposite sex)

I've got sympathy, too, and I don't think it will ease anyone's pain in the long run if society keeps using compelled speech. I'd still call it psychosis, too, even if it was induced by narcissist authority figures (because of course it was, matter of fact it is in almost all cases of "trans kids"). But that's neither here nor there.

I totally get the sentiment. I found everything about being a girl limiting and I didn't want to fit into that box.

I went through a number of real passions - football was one and music was another.

For football I loved watching it (couldn't play - I'm from the era before girls were allowed to and I bet if have loved to play if I'd have been younger). I ended up having loads of banter with two of my fav teachers who were football crazy. Looking back those things got me through school as I never fitted in. The attitude was always 'which one do you fancy?' and that was one of the things. I just didn't. I didn't fancy pop stars, movie stars, football stars... But there was a pressure and expectation to. I just found myself wondering why I didn't. Why am I such a freak. I wasn't interested in faces particularly. Never have been. I like interesting people. That's what I'm attracted to. Why should I be attracted to people I don't know? I was socially awkward and ostracised deliberately by one girl (others actively said I'd hang out with you but she says if I do I won't have friends and I was easier to say no to because I took it better). Yep the whole thing about girls and being in a group and that being the best all and end all. Except I didn't want to do what they were doing.

And then it was music. And I knew more about every band than anyone else. Because I almost felt I had to prove myself to be taken seriously. It got a little crazy because I think I got competitive. That was my life - seeing bands often by myself because no one would come with me. And I started to meet people through music. Uni wasn't working for me and I didn't meet my tribe like everyone said I would. I ended up in a number of awful relationships with someone who wasn't my equal and they bloody knew it so punished me for it.

But girls and guitars look wrong. They don't look cool. The proportions dont look right. The vocals mean you make a different kind of sound and whilst I liked some of those bands they just weren't the heavy weights for me. I was actively saying I wished I was a bloke at age 19 because of all this. I can remember discussing it with a friend going to a particular gig in London. I had no regard for my own wellbeing or safety really a lot of the time because I had such a low opinion of myself. Being at the gig felt like being immortal and totally immersed in the moment and totally the opposite. It was addictive.

The internet at uni was really 'my saviour' at the time and that's where I started to meet my tribe and was going off to meet people. And it became at certain gigs about that not necessarily the band itself. It was about this sense of belonging and community...

What I've learnt from this though is those types of online community can be super intense all consuming and have a life cycle of introduction, maturity then slow death as real life takes over. I feel so much on the edge of an era and like I did it before so many other people. We were the first gen and it comes up a lot with our friends. DH and I are ten years younger than our best friends. They have kids now in their twenties too. We are like the inbetween group (we are Xennials) - we understand both in a way that they don't understand each other. We were ahead of the curve. I feel DSs generation are fundamentally different and I can see him also being ahead of his curve too (he's on the cusp of gen alpha too). I think this is why I can read politics and communities better than many because I've already seen it at a microlevel

The issue with trans is the focal point isn't about football or music but a central idea about not fitting in and gender stereotypes. It is cultlike to a greater degree. I know how obsessive and all consuming it can be - I've been there done that just in a different area. It's about coming to terms with your place in the world and how you fit in. It can be about escapism and demonstrating how committed you are, how different to the rest of the world and how you don't want to conform. I think it's about battling against society. Now imagine this weaponised into politics and identity. For me it's really not much of a step from the online world I was living in in the late 90s - until the late 2000s. We just had music but now the cool thing is politics generally - it's why we have the rather vacuous Omnicause shit and celebrity politicians. It's this youth culture transferred to politics.

I did march to stop the Iraq war (ironically my reasoning was about political vacuums and the lack of planning for what came next - pragmatic more than purely ideological). I became very disillusioned by the mix of groups who jumped on the bandwagon and I found the proPalestine protesters particularly difficult in their approach even then). This was again something I did alone. And again I think has changed but hasnt changed in a way.

I probably did a decade to thirteen years before I really was done with it though it faded off a lot towards the end. (Life stages/life span of a cult is 7 to 10 years generally I believe)..

Id already stepped off a little in 2004 as I'd had enough and went travelling. I came back realising I was trying to run away from myself. I think I realised it's ok to be alone to a degree and you didn't need constant validation and reassurance about everything. When I came back the community was really the only structure I had so I fell back into it (and met DH) but it wasn't the same. It was just there. And everyone else started to pair off and marry anyway. And the whole thing really just folded in on itself quite naturally

It was sad seeing some of the people clinging on at the end almost left behind because they didn't have a new life to go to. We all had just grown up and were settling down and were comfortable. I wouldn't say conforming. That's a stretch to far. Just went didn't have time for the teenage angst and drama llamaing anymore. We'd just grown up. But this is problematic if you're trying to actively prevent the process of growing up with puberty blockers and hormones.

And I do feel this is exactly what will happen to a lot of those sucked in. Except for the ones who took it too far. They are going to be truly fucked as others around them exit at various points. They have no exit. And the Japanese Soldier comparison is spot on. You become almost frozen in time and unable to progress to the next life stage. And yep it's exactly about life stages.

My late 20s and early 30s was about me and DH and that was better. I wasn't struggling with self esteem and being everyones punching bag in the same way. But yeah 15 - 25. Awful. I did so much and had a great time along the way but I don't think I appreciated it or enjoyed it as much as I could as I was so desperately seeking 'something' anything. I only found peace leaving it all behind and realising it wasn't about anyone else.

I didn't want to do the whole get a boring job, get married to Mr boring and have kids and your life is over, never go out, never say or do anything interesting cos it might rock the boat, have a mortgage and turn into your parents. I can safely say whilst I'm settled I've never confirmed and gone dull. I don't give a fuck about fitting in now. Take me or leave me and actually friendship have come because of that. I'm still team awkward squad.

But yes I've struggled a lot with the reality of my physical being, got endlessly frustrated at not being taken seriously because of my sex, the very concept of losing myself to a marriage (I never changed my name) and the grimness of thinking about childbirth. It's not lost on me how these are all related to being a woman.

It's the same things just manifesting in a new way for a new generation. And it will burn out. There just will be casualties. You just need to steer those you love through the minefield until they work it out themselves. Overbearing parents trying to force the world against reality are never going to ultimately going to win because they are actively causing their kid to be a casualty who can't ultimately move on when the time comes. They will be left behind whilst everyone else moves on.

The thing that hurts is recognising those who will be harmed and seeing them harm themselves in real time. There will be many who will ultimately go "why didn't I just get an ill-advised tattoo and have done with it?"

100% agree @RedToothBrush .

I was a 'tomboy' who loved horses. My developing body horrified me. i could not stand periods. I could not stand that my bum and hips got big, i had to enter horse shows around my periods (I never used tampons) I hated that my breasts hurt and that adult men all of a sudden would touch me, grope me, make crude suggestions to me (including the obligatory dirty pervert uncle most people seem to have in their family).

I used to strap my breasts down with a horse exercise bandage. I wore huge baggy clothes to disguise my body. If I could have taken any medication or identified my way out of what being a young teen girl and a young woman meant (and how society viewed us, limited us, objectified us) then I would have done it. I would have begged my parents to let me.

Puberty is an awful time for everyone, but I think generally speaking girls have it the worst. So the idea that adults- fully functional adults - are encouraging irreversible appalling medication on young people who have no real idea what the consequences are and who are not equipped with the level of mature neurological development to even understand those consequences is horrifying.