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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

John Davison BAFTA Tourette’s incident and competing rights

866 replies

slet · 24/02/2026 15:39

It’s interesting how this is being discussed atm. I see Ash Sarkar has framed it as an example of competing rights between disabled people and victims of racism, forgetting about intersectionality. But there is a struggle from those on the extreme left to see how women’s rights are compromised by ceding to TRAs.

not expressing myself very well but thought it had some interesting parallels with the sex and gender debate.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
OtterlyAstounding · 27/02/2026 09:23

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 27/02/2026 09:05

Well I’ve seen people saying he should have his tongue cut out, he should be muzzled, he’s a racist, he should be financially penalised, the film should be boycotted.

I’m done.

On Twitter, by any chance? I tend not to go to places like that online, because they have so many ugly, extreme, rage-bait posts designed to shock and provoke engagement.

But it's terrible, regardless. The sort of vitriol spewed by people online is awful.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2026 09:24

So JD has been deliberately targeted and effected as a direct result of the broadcast... What's that conversation about protecting and harms again?

That's really scary.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 27/02/2026 09:32

OtterlyAstounding · 27/02/2026 09:23

On Twitter, by any chance? I tend not to go to places like that online, because they have so many ugly, extreme, rage-bait posts designed to shock and provoke engagement.

But it's terrible, regardless. The sort of vitriol spewed by people online is awful.

Oh any social media you care to look at. It’s everywhere. Vile beyond belief. The man could not help it and has apologised.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 27/02/2026 09:39

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2026 09:24

So JD has been deliberately targeted and effected as a direct result of the broadcast... What's that conversation about protecting and harms again?

That's really scary.

It’s disgusting. He’s a bloody working class man from Galashiels who has struggled all his life. Has anyone ever been to Galashiels? Loving the memes and tweets coming out to support John.

And that poor lovely girl on Tik Tok who has Tourette’s and coprolalia who eloquently explained all about the condition, tics etc has put a post up saying she’s to come off tik tok due to the abuse she’s getting, from her own black community! Well some, there’s plenty of black people on Tik Tok telling those insulting John to get a grip, he’s got Tourette’s.
Some comments are saying she’s choosing her disability over ‘being black’, that’s a direct quote btw. Why is it one over the other?

It’s still being lost on a couple of posters that grace and understand HAS been given to those who find the word triggering.

Red, your posts are eloquent and thought provoking.

frenchnoodle · 27/02/2026 09:56

It's certainly done nothing to increase my opinion of Americans. Jamie Foxx's spur of the moment comment has ruined a man's life. Which Jamie absolutely didn't know at the time, he was just giving his honest opinion without knowing the facts, but that's what happened.
John's never going to trust the BBC again is he. Scummy company.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2026 10:38

AccidentallyWesAnderson I don't claim to have all the answers or to be perfect. I do recognise that there is no perfect solution too. Unfortunately I do think there's limits to the law and theres areas where not everyone can be protected all the time. I don't believe in authoritarian approaches to speech and thinking whichever direction they come from as they are problematic. You can't prevent all harm no matter how well intentioned and noble you are. No matter how unfair this might be in some circumstances. I don't think the Equality Act and our Human Rights laws set out to do that either - they only set out to minimise them as far as possible. I think there's a fundamental failure to understand this and the reality of the world. We live in a me, me, me era which doesn't want to acknowledge that which is really difficult to navigate.

I am fully aware that lots of people will not like me pointing this out too. It's the nature of the problem though.

OtterlyAstounding · 27/02/2026 11:29

"It’s still being lost on a couple of posters that grace and understand HAS been given to those who find the word triggering."

This isn't entirely true. People who have talked about certain tics being triggering have been called unintelligent, irrational, self-centred, playing the victim, choosing to be offended, calling him racist, and much more. There have even been comments saying that people attending the BAFTAs shouldn't have been pre-warned, lest they choose not to attend.

Although it is, of course, absolutely terrible the way that he is being treated. People just don't know how to be moderate. Everything is so polarised and extreme these days.

theilltemperedamateur · 27/02/2026 13:42

The furore around this story reminds me of what happened when a driver suffered a seizure at the wheel and killed two children.

There was a massive pile-on from people saying that she was lying, insufficiently apologetic, drove the wrong sort of car, was a rich b who manipulated the investigation, and, yes, was a racist (she was white and the victims were not) enjoying white privilege. No-one was crass enough to suggest the grieving relatives should count themselves lucky it was 'only' a no-fault collision - but lots of people reacted exactly as if that was what the driver's 'apologists' were saying.

I won't post a link because it's still technically under investigation (it was reopened under pressure of public opinion but seems to have stalled), but here is a recent similar story:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj32lpp445xo

.....two experts had reviewed the evidence available and had both concluded on the balance of probabilities, [the driver] had suffered a seizure.....[The coroner] added it was unlikely the driver had fallen asleep at the wheel and there was "nothing amiss" with the van. In a statement, [the driver] said: "I am devastated. I would like to express my sympathy to the family and I hope the passenger is OK. I can't explain the crash, I can't remember anything, I don't know how or why it happened."

Notably, the driver is not apologetic, despite having been the unwitting cause of terrible harm. Hopefully, he has not suffered backlash, but if he did it would not be surprising, because humans want someone to blame, not to be hateful, but because it bolsters their sense of control over their own lives. They like to think that if they always do the right thing, they will become neither victim nor perpetrator. Life is not so tidy.

The entrance to Cumbria coroner's court building. The entrance is at the left-hand side of a three-storey building, with beige cladding on the ground floor and shelldash on the upper floors. There is a sign for the coroner's court in front on a ramp le...

A66 driver 'devastated' as seizure caused fatal crash

Thomas Norman Hurst's car was hit by a van after its driver lost control of it, an inquest hears.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj32lpp445xo

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 27/02/2026 14:56

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2026 08:04

The opening premise of the thread is about competing rights and the comparison to other issues - namely gender / sex. Legalities are fairly relevant to that.

As for 'rambling' and chatgpt. Well if that's your rebuff I think it's the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears going la la la. I didn't expect anything other than that.

My points still stand to those who want to consider the premise of the OP and the issues that arise in that context.

Oh and I'm never going to apologise for 'rambling'. Cos bloody hell I've been doing it on Mumsnet for years and over the years I don't think it's served me badly. I'm not really into thought terminating clichés, 256 character comments and jumping on the latest approved passing bandwagon of opinion for a reason... I'm into pragmatic understanding and solutions which deal with realities that are sometimes inconvenient. Cos those are our conflict and crunch points in society.

I'm into pragmatic understanding and solutions which deal with realities that are sometimes inconvenient. Cos those are our conflict and crunch points in society.

Again attempts to control meaning and consensus. Are you a man or a transwoman?

OP
It’s interesting how this is being discussed atm. I see Ash Sarkar has framed it as an example of competing rights between disabled people and victims of racism, forgetting about intersectionality. But there is a struggle from those on the extreme left to see how women’s rights are compromised by ceding to TRAs.
not expressing myself very well but thought it had some interesting parallels with the sex and gender debate.

One of many possible interpretations of the OP's post, by someone not trying to control the narrative, is: The OP is talking about rights and considerations which sit both inside and outside of legal frameworks. The clue is in the word – intersectionality – the idea that people’s experiences of injustice aren’t shaped by just one thing, but by a mix of who they are and how the world treats those parts of them at the same time. It does not fit neatly into legal frameworks, yet it exists.

We are talking to different parts of the issue. I’m interested in how this works in real life to minimise harm and maximise cohesion. In this specific example between people with the protected characteristic of Tourette's, a disability which may carry the risk of involuntary racial tics, and people with the protected characteristic of race who may have involuntary trauma responses. You keep dragging it back to legal tick-boxes so you can say “job done”. But legal compliance isn't cohesion.

Intersectionality reflects lived harm and history shows the law rarely leads on justice or protection from harm. It gets dragged there by people already living with inequality or by those with the power to push for change. The courts didn’t pioneer racial equality or women’s rights, they gave in to relentless social pressure. So, unfortunately, it is never “job done” with the law.

Legal protection can also be rolled back or fail in practice (past: Windrush, Future: reproductive rights? Equalities act?). When communities have seen systems fall short of protecting them in the past, trust in those systems is no longer automatic. That matters in conversations about trauma, which I have tried to explain from the intersectional position of a Black woman. Trauma responses don’t emerge from theory, they are shaped by experience and history. So looking beyond legal solutions is not dismissing the law, but recognising that trust is built socially as well as legally.

Even when the legal bar is met, outcomes aren’t equal – just ask women navigating rape or domestic abuse cases, or ethnic minorities facing sentencing disparities. Courts intervene after harm, they don’t prevent it. Why are you so insistent that solutions must sit only in a system that has helped shape inequality? Is that misplaced faith? Or is do you have some other motive? Because real solutions usually start socially, and intersectionality matters here. The law catches up later, sometimes well and sometimes not.

A last thought : if legal rulings are meant to settle things, how is that working out with the Supreme Court decision that was supposed to bring clarity to women’s single-sex spaces?

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/02/2026 19:49

GenderlessVoid · 26/02/2026 13:15

I wanted to reply to this because I think it's important that people understand that words can cause a trauma response, which can be physically painful, emotionally painful, and disabling. If you care about women's rights or disability awareness, you should understand trauma responses.

I have Tourette's as well as PTSD. Both seem similar to me in that I have no control over either and they take away my control over my body and, especially with PTSD, my mind. If someone says or does something that reminds me of my trauma, I may have a trauma response. Like Tourette's, it's a physiological response that I have no control over. (As I said earlier ITT, I have more control over my tics than my PTSD bc I can sometimes redirect my tics. I have no control over my trauma response.)

My PTSD often involves "re-living" my trauma, including experiencing terror and pain. This can last a few hours or a few days, occasionally longer. It's incapacitating. I can barely function at all, much less do a good job of caring for children, work, social activities, etc. I wish I could ignore it but when I'm having flashbacks, I can't. It's horrible.

Edited

Choose not to be harmed, and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
Marcus Aurelius.

GenderlessVoid · 28/02/2026 20:08

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/02/2026 19:49

Choose not to be harmed, and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
Marcus Aurelius.

whoosh

What part of involuntary don't you understand?

Or do you think reliving horrible, painful abuse is not harmful regardless of my feelings about it? My doctors disagree.

GenderlessVoid · 28/02/2026 20:19

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/02/2026 19:49

Choose not to be harmed, and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
Marcus Aurelius.

Replying again to point out how you're minimizing a PTSD/trauma response in a women's forum. In a thread about disabilities. FFS

UtopiaPlanitia · 01/03/2026 14:48

Further developments in the story.

https://x.com/HadleyFreeman/status/2028104586414768396?s=20

https://nitter.net/HadleyFreeman/status/2028104586414768396#m

"On the one hand, two wealthy, successful men living their lifelong dreams get called a horrible name at the Baftas On the other, a man with a lifelong, life-crippling neurological condition now held up for global mockery. Hard not to see this as the endpoint of identity politics"

NewYearSameMe16 · 01/03/2026 15:01

UtopiaPlanitia · 01/03/2026 14:48

Further developments in the story.

https://x.com/HadleyFreeman/status/2028104586414768396?s=20

https://nitter.net/HadleyFreeman/status/2028104586414768396#m

"On the one hand, two wealthy, successful men living their lifelong dreams get called a horrible name at the Baftas On the other, a man with a lifelong, life-crippling neurological condition now held up for global mockery. Hard not to see this as the endpoint of identity politics"

I don’t necessarily agree with the joke (or find it funny) but Jack Whitehall made jokes about the situation last night at the BRITs, so are we upset about that too?

I appreciated Jayme Lawson’s (who also starred in Sinners) view where she spoke on the fact that none of the people involved were protected: x.com/thr/status/2027961255533900157?s=46

BackToLurk · 01/03/2026 15:05

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/02/2026 19:49

Choose not to be harmed, and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
Marcus Aurelius.

Quite right. Those women who get all upset because they hear the male voice of a transwoman at the other end of a rape crisis helpline need to just “get a grip”. Losers.

UtopiaPlanitia · 01/03/2026 15:19

NewYearSameMe16 · 01/03/2026 15:01

I don’t necessarily agree with the joke (or find it funny) but Jack Whitehall made jokes about the situation last night at the BRITs, so are we upset about that too?

I appreciated Jayme Lawson’s (who also starred in Sinners) view where she spoke on the fact that none of the people involved were protected: x.com/thr/status/2027961255533900157?s=46

I'm not in favour of any comedians taking the piss out of Davidson for a medical condition he can't control and that makes his daily life extremely difficult.

Comedy can be used to interrogate and discuss difficult social issues but this is not doing that.

GenderlessVoid · 01/03/2026 17:13

Choose not to be harmed, and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.

This sounds like my perps: "I'm not going to hurt you, I just want to put my willy in your mouth." "I'm just playing with your fanny, no harm."

"Why are you choosing to be upset about things that haven't really hurt you?" "It's your fault for being upset." Both my perps and those who covered for them (of which there were many) said essentially the same thing about my abuse. Now you're saying it about my involuntary reaction to that abuse.

How is the above not blaming the victims of abuse? How is it any different than what groomers say?

I've had many tics for several hours in response to the above post. Is it important enough for you to care about now or still not important enough to care about because my Tourette's was set off by my trauma response?

Is mocking a trauma response ok? How is that different than mocking Tourette's?

I guess this ties it into the OP: thought it had some interesting parallels with the sex and gender debate."

Sorry if this is incoherent. The above upsets me.

Anthophile · 01/03/2026 19:55

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 28/02/2026 19:49

Choose not to be harmed, and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
Marcus Aurelius.

@SingleSexSpacesInSchools

"Choose not to be harmed, and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
Marcus Aurelius."

What do you mean by this, especially given that you are replying to another person recounting their experience of PTSD and Tourette's? Surely you don't mean to say the fault or responsibility lies with those who have been harmed because they chose to be or felt harmed?

If you indeed meant that harm is a choice, surely you must also see that those dimissing the necessity of single-sex spaces in schools may turn your argument against you. They could claim that the presence of male students with a particular gender identity in female spaces does not have to be disallowed despite female students' mental distress (including trauma responses) and erosion of their dignity, because such harm is subjective and they should just get over it.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 01/03/2026 19:59

Anthophile · 01/03/2026 19:55

@SingleSexSpacesInSchools

"Choose not to be harmed, and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
Marcus Aurelius."

What do you mean by this, especially given that you are replying to another person recounting their experience of PTSD and Tourette's? Surely you don't mean to say the fault or responsibility lies with those who have been harmed because they chose to be or felt harmed?

If you indeed meant that harm is a choice, surely you must also see that those dimissing the necessity of single-sex spaces in schools may turn your argument against you. They could claim that the presence of male students with a particular gender identity in female spaces does not have to be disallowed despite female students' mental distress (including trauma responses) and erosion of their dignity, because such harm is subjective and they should just get over it.

Edited

What do you think the Stoics might have meant by it?

Anthophile · 01/03/2026 20:16

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 01/03/2026 19:59

What do you think the Stoics might have meant by it?

No, I'm interested in your answer (in your own words) to understand what you exactly meant by that quote in response to another person relaying their experience of PTSD and Tourette's, because I don't want to assume you are being deliberately dismissive and/or provocative.

Could you also respond to @BackToLurk 's point about your Marcus Aurelius quote? It seems more relevant to the theme of the board (feminism).

TempestTost · 01/03/2026 20:41

I think there is a larger question, among all this trauma-response talk, about how we've been framing language over the last few decades, and particularly the last decade.

I've often thought in recent years that we are creating a way of thinking about words and certain kinds of actions that gives some of them an almost magical-power significance.

That's not something that is particularly inherent to them, it's learned.

As an example, an academic who lives near me wrong some kind of article a few years ago about the use of blackface, the conclusion of which was that it's significance (and even definition) depends on the context - something that seems inarguable on the face of it. He was however vilified for this by a number of organisation - no shock there - taking the view that somehow this is an objective act where "harm" was always present. This is the view that has idiots claiming that things like photos of Welsh miners in public spaces are triggering, or words that sound like other words, even if there is no real connection, cause harm.

It is possible to have words that are understood as offensive in various ways, or rude, without building them up into something so extreme. It almost seems like the creation of a kind of honour society where we have to navigate language and forms of address in a complex way to avoid impinging anyone's honour and creating a serious incident unintentionally.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 01/03/2026 21:15

Anthophile · 01/03/2026 20:16

No, I'm interested in your answer (in your own words) to understand what you exactly meant by that quote in response to another person relaying their experience of PTSD and Tourette's, because I don't want to assume you are being deliberately dismissive and/or provocative.

Could you also respond to @BackToLurk 's point about your Marcus Aurelius quote? It seems more relevant to the theme of the board (feminism).

I don’t think I will.

GenderlessVoid · 01/03/2026 21:16

Anthophile · 01/03/2026 19:55

@SingleSexSpacesInSchools

"Choose not to be harmed, and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
Marcus Aurelius."

What do you mean by this, especially given that you are replying to another person recounting their experience of PTSD and Tourette's? Surely you don't mean to say the fault or responsibility lies with those who have been harmed because they chose to be or felt harmed?

If you indeed meant that harm is a choice, surely you must also see that those dimissing the necessity of single-sex spaces in schools may turn your argument against you. They could claim that the presence of male students with a particular gender identity in female spaces does not have to be disallowed despite female students' mental distress (including trauma responses) and erosion of their dignity, because such harm is subjective and they should just get over it.

Edited

Thank you.

I also want to emphasize that it was used for years (probably centuries) to minimize CSA: "Oh he's just a kiddy fiddler/diddler, no real harm. We don't want to ruin a good man over that." It wasn't just a few bad cops who looked the other way, it was a lot of people in society who excused the harm to children as just a minor inconvenience for the child but punishing the offender would be a grievous injury to the perpetrator and his family. (At the same time as saying it was no big deal, the girl was now forever a worthless slag who deserved it.) And, since it's usually a fetish, it often escalated to more. But we have to protect the man bc reasons.

As you point out, now some use it to say that women who don't want to share intimate spaces with men should just get over it.

There's a very long history of minimizing the harm to women and telling us to buck up and get over it for the common good.

edit: typo

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 01/03/2026 21:45

GenderlessVoid · 01/03/2026 21:16

Thank you.

I also want to emphasize that it was used for years (probably centuries) to minimize CSA: "Oh he's just a kiddy fiddler/diddler, no real harm. We don't want to ruin a good man over that." It wasn't just a few bad cops who looked the other way, it was a lot of people in society who excused the harm to children as just a minor inconvenience for the child but punishing the offender would be a grievous injury to the perpetrator and his family. (At the same time as saying it was no big deal, the girl was now forever a worthless slag who deserved it.) And, since it's usually a fetish, it often escalated to more. But we have to protect the man bc reasons.

As you point out, now some use it to say that women who don't want to share intimate spaces with men should just get over it.

There's a very long history of minimizing the harm to women and telling us to buck up and get over it for the common good.

edit: typo

Edited

Oh no the reason is that I got my account banned for three days for pointing out that the fundamental tents of Stoicism do not support this world view. I could say it’s a philosophy followed my millions, not least the most powerful person on the planet for 500 years, but it seems that would upset people. So I wont. But. There are other perspectives. I’d very much love to go into detail about what is in your control and what is not. But I’m here to change the conversation about UK gender / Trans conversations and I occasionally get side tracked into other chats. I’m sure I’m right, I’d very much like to debate it, I’d be very happy to change my mind post discussion - but it seems some people don’t like debate.

and losing my account permanently would disadvantage my daughter and the large local fight I’m doing.