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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

John Davison BAFTA Tourette’s incident and competing rights

866 replies

slet · 24/02/2026 15:39

It’s interesting how this is being discussed atm. I see Ash Sarkar has framed it as an example of competing rights between disabled people and victims of racism, forgetting about intersectionality. But there is a struggle from those on the extreme left to see how women’s rights are compromised by ceding to TRAs.

not expressing myself very well but thought it had some interesting parallels with the sex and gender debate.

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TomPinch · 26/02/2026 03:54

It would have been discrimination to exclude John Davison from the awards ceremony. Why then wouldn't it discrimination to edit out the words he said?

Are they doing that to anyone else?

frenchnoodle · 26/02/2026 05:28

TomPinch · 26/02/2026 03:54

It would have been discrimination to exclude John Davison from the awards ceremony. Why then wouldn't it discrimination to edit out the words he said?

Are they doing that to anyone else?

They edit out loads of stuff from events all the time.

And no editing out things to keep a disabled persons dignity isn't discrimination. 🤦

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 05:31

TomPinch · 26/02/2026 03:54

It would have been discrimination to exclude John Davison from the awards ceremony. Why then wouldn't it discrimination to edit out the words he said?

Are they doing that to anyone else?

He has said he did ask for this to be done and attended on the basis of this, for his own well being.

So no it's not discrimination in those circumstances as he asked for it as a reasonable adjustments to protect his dignity.

This was so he wouldn't be subject to a shit load of abuse on social media if he said something offensive. Which clearly utterly failed.

I've tried editing this post to remove inappropriate picture but it won't let me.

I'm sincerely mortified and I know how bad it looks. It was a complete accident. It's 5.36am I'm not sleeping. I'm stressed and it looks terrible.

I have self reported immediately to MN.

That could not have been worse if I actually tried.

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 05:33

I'm going to apologise for that post. I'm fat fingered and pressed a gif which is utterly inappropriate for this thread and looks terrible. I have also reported immediately.

I'm so sorry. That was not intentional and I'm mortified.

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 05:38

I want to cry.

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 05:48

I don't even know how I did that apart from being fat fingered. That's the worst gif to have come up too. I'm so sorry sorry.

I can't apologise enough.

OtterlyAstounding · 26/02/2026 05:50

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 05:33

I'm going to apologise for that post. I'm fat fingered and pressed a gif which is utterly inappropriate for this thread and looks terrible. I have also reported immediately.

I'm so sorry. That was not intentional and I'm mortified.

Happily, it's not that inappropriate!! Just a little confusing, because at first I thought you were agreeing with TomPinch's take, but then you disagreed (or rather, clarified the situation).

It's a shame Mumsnet don't let you edit the gif or quoted post, just text.

Edit: My kids like Speed, so I was like, 'oh hey, it's ishowspeed!' 😁

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 05:56

Thank you. It still looks utterly inappropriate in the context of what we've been talking about and deletions on this thread already though. I appreciate that comment a lot.

OtterlyAstounding · 26/02/2026 06:05

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 05:56

Thank you. It still looks utterly inappropriate in the context of what we've been talking about and deletions on this thread already though. I appreciate that comment a lot.

Hopefully Mumsnet will take care of it 😅 And I didn't want to read and run when you felt bad about it! I'm sure, considering your in-depth and thoughtful comments on this thread (even if we may disagree) that people aren't going to think you're the sort to be goady with gifs!!

TomPinch · 26/02/2026 06:19

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 05:48

I don't even know how I did that apart from being fat fingered. That's the worst gif to have come up too. I'm so sorry sorry.

I can't apologise enough.

I've found your posts on this thread well worth reading. I hate that you feel you have to apologise for the gif, though I'm not sure what you were intending to convey to me by it.

If Davison himself requested that his comments be edited then my point is by the by, but I think editing a person with Tourettes when they are at an award ceremony specifically for their work in that area would look very bad from a slightly different angle.

(I understand that the BBC did edit out a an award recipient who shouted 'Free Palestine'.)

I hope you feel better very soon. 🌺

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 07:10

TomPinch · 26/02/2026 06:19

I've found your posts on this thread well worth reading. I hate that you feel you have to apologise for the gif, though I'm not sure what you were intending to convey to me by it.

If Davison himself requested that his comments be edited then my point is by the by, but I think editing a person with Tourettes when they are at an award ceremony specifically for their work in that area would look very bad from a slightly different angle.

(I understand that the BBC did edit out a an award recipient who shouted 'Free Palestine'.)

I hope you feel better very soon. 🌺

I'm torn if I'm honest. I think we run the risk of sanitising the reality of Tourettes with censorship especially given the situation and the purpose of the film. Part of me does think that rather than normalising censorship of Tourettes tics that we just have to ignore it no matter how awful it is. BUT it also upset him as much as it's upsetting others so it's clearly wasn't the answer in this situation.

Plus I do think one of the issues with the whole scenario which I mentioned up thread is that you are only hearing the audio, which in itself lacks context.

If we could see and hear him, you have a much better understanding that it's a Tourettes tic. That makes you process the situation differently because your own response is different because you have more context from which to feed back what is happening and what the intention is.

One of my friend tics turns out to be constantly touching my arm. It's extremely irritating but I also knew immediately the first time she did it she was finding me calming somehow from reading the situation. So you kind of put up with it through gritted teeth. She later explained that touching things can help because it gives her brain an alternative stimulation which helps distracts it from the intrusive thoughts which made a lot of sense. Her brain was essentially reassuring itself and she'd focused on me as a 'safe individual'. I have no idea why she did this. There were others there who know her much better than I do. I perhaps understand anxiety issues better because of my own issues. I don't know. She explained it as form of grounding which is a technique for dealing with anxiety which I've heard of before. She was also using fidget spinners for the same reason.

To me just putting up with it and just getting on and ignoring it was very instinctive. It was not just merely being polite. It seemed to be what she was needing in that moment so I went with it. As I say I didn't know she had Tourettes before this occasion until I was in a situation where she couldn't exactly hide it. And even then she didn't immediately explain it.

It's a case of getting all the visual, verbal and other social cues that help you understand the situation. When you remove just one element of that you don't necessarily appreciate what's happening in full. Communication is a whole range of things. How we understand others isn't just from what they say, its how they say it, the context of what they say, their body language etc etc.

I guess it's probably a reasonable adjustment for all concerned especially because he requested it. It makes sense to edit vocal without all that behind that too.

I don't know. I don't know how you would live with it on a day to day basis. I don't know how you get people to understand that it's effectively someone acting out their worst nightmare in public and having no control of it and help them to understand there's very little that we can do to mitigate the situation apart from explaining and just carry on. I don't know how you manage an unmanageable situation.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 26/02/2026 07:28

OtterlyAstounding · 26/02/2026 00:22

Its not my fight to have but like RedToothBrush I believe that it does muddy the waters.

How? Maybe within the Black community, yeah, but in the, 'if you're not black, don't use it' realm, the waters are crystal clear.

You have no idea how racist that sounds. Treating people differently because of how much melanin they have in their skin....

OtterlyAstounding · 26/02/2026 07:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Datun · 26/02/2026 08:03

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 05:38

I want to cry.

By the time I, and most people read it, it's gone

PachacutisBadAuntie · 26/02/2026 08:19

UtopiaPlanitia · 26/02/2026 02:48

Thanks for the link to the article 👍

I watched this analysis from a Norwegian media/culture commentator discussing the differing responses from the US and the UK - I thought it was interesting too:

That was a very interesting analysis, and makes it clear how context specific the different reactions are. I would say that this thread demonstrates how that applies to individuals as well as countries.

@RedToothBrush I hope you are getting some sleep and feel better soon 💐

BackToLurk · 26/02/2026 08:30

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 26/02/2026 07:28

You have no idea how racist that sounds. Treating people differently because of how much melanin they have in their skin....

Nah. No different to saying “men don’t get to set the rules for female communities”. Although now I appreciate how tricky that may be for you to understand.

TomPinch · 26/02/2026 09:18

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 07:10

I'm torn if I'm honest. I think we run the risk of sanitising the reality of Tourettes with censorship especially given the situation and the purpose of the film. Part of me does think that rather than normalising censorship of Tourettes tics that we just have to ignore it no matter how awful it is. BUT it also upset him as much as it's upsetting others so it's clearly wasn't the answer in this situation.

Plus I do think one of the issues with the whole scenario which I mentioned up thread is that you are only hearing the audio, which in itself lacks context.

If we could see and hear him, you have a much better understanding that it's a Tourettes tic. That makes you process the situation differently because your own response is different because you have more context from which to feed back what is happening and what the intention is.

One of my friend tics turns out to be constantly touching my arm. It's extremely irritating but I also knew immediately the first time she did it she was finding me calming somehow from reading the situation. So you kind of put up with it through gritted teeth. She later explained that touching things can help because it gives her brain an alternative stimulation which helps distracts it from the intrusive thoughts which made a lot of sense. Her brain was essentially reassuring itself and she'd focused on me as a 'safe individual'. I have no idea why she did this. There were others there who know her much better than I do. I perhaps understand anxiety issues better because of my own issues. I don't know. She explained it as form of grounding which is a technique for dealing with anxiety which I've heard of before. She was also using fidget spinners for the same reason.

To me just putting up with it and just getting on and ignoring it was very instinctive. It was not just merely being polite. It seemed to be what she was needing in that moment so I went with it. As I say I didn't know she had Tourettes before this occasion until I was in a situation where she couldn't exactly hide it. And even then she didn't immediately explain it.

It's a case of getting all the visual, verbal and other social cues that help you understand the situation. When you remove just one element of that you don't necessarily appreciate what's happening in full. Communication is a whole range of things. How we understand others isn't just from what they say, its how they say it, the context of what they say, their body language etc etc.

I guess it's probably a reasonable adjustment for all concerned especially because he requested it. It makes sense to edit vocal without all that behind that too.

I don't know. I don't know how you would live with it on a day to day basis. I don't know how you get people to understand that it's effectively someone acting out their worst nightmare in public and having no control of it and help them to understand there's very little that we can do to mitigate the situation apart from explaining and just carry on. I don't know how you manage an unmanageable situation.

Thank you for the reply. Someone I knew well is autistic and does not get social cues. She describes herself as having a mark on her forehead. It's quite exhausting for her, trying to fit in and not be seen as rude. It sounds similar to what you describe.

There really is no substitute for goodwill and that seems very lacking just now.

I also think your friend's attitude to you is a real complement to you.

ProfessorBinturong · 26/02/2026 09:47

TomPinch · 26/02/2026 03:54

It would have been discrimination to exclude John Davison from the awards ceremony. Why then wouldn't it discrimination to edit out the words he said?

Are they doing that to anyone else?

In addition to RTB's point about it having been previously agreed with John, he was shouting things from the audience. Editing out audience noise so you can hear the intended speakers more clearly is routine. It's not discriminatory if you're doing it to everyone.

I dont actually know why they had mics in the audience space at all (and would like to know if they had them throughout the audience or only by John's seat).

theilltemperedamateur · 26/02/2026 09:49

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 26/02/2026 07:28

You have no idea how racist that sounds. Treating people differently because of how much melanin they have in their skin....

Only Black people get to decide when and how that word can be used.

That's why all those well-meaning people, who are trying to defuse the situation by pointing out the genuine lack of racist intent, are finding their efforts going down like a bowl of cold sick.

As people with coprolalia, unless gagged or housebound, are bound to break this rule sometimes, we have an irreversible force/immovable object problem here. If it can't be remedied with education and mutual goodwill (and the auguries are not great), then the only alternative is mitigation - in this case through technology, which bafta and the BBC failed to do.

LeftieRightsHoarder · 26/02/2026 09:54

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2026 17:01

The issue here is you can only make accomodations for Tourettes by awareness and explanation. You can't actually stop what they are saying. They are always going to offend. And they will offend in what is essentially a none discriminatory way although some individuals will be more upset by it than others. Their intent is never one that is self centred or malicious. It's a truly awful condition.

In a situation where someone is having a severe bout of Tourettes tics, they are actively very vulnerable and at risk at that moment. They come about due to stress so trying to minimise that and prepare people in advance is necessary because it reduces the potential impact in many scenarios. However it can be in literally any situation from walking down the street, to dropping the kids off, to shopping that the impact happens and is very visible.

And being completely honest you can't stop people being offended. That's the nature of the disability. There is no nuance. There is no compromise which doesn't restrict the life of the person to being homebound or institutionalised.

In terms of the issue for sex and gender, genderists demand validation and compliance that goes beyond wanting rights and respect. They are actively rejecting third party spaces that can be used by everyone - the point is they are using the women in spaces and using others for validation. Transwomen also are not the most vulnerable in every scenario unlike is the case for someone in the midst of a Tourettes episode.

This means the harms and balancing of rights issues are massively different.

You aren't getting another group who are being impacted negatively more than others in the same way. There isn't issues over intent and motivations. There are third party solutions available. There aren't doubts over medicalisation and how you treat different cohorts - it's a medical condition that doesn't rely on fantasy wording and power and control dynamics. It has a clear set of diagnostic criteria and can be described in a way that would have a clear legal definition.

I got really upset by the thread last night because I have a friend with Tourettes. Having spent time with her doing normal things it brings it home how awful the condition is. It's exhausting just being around her. If she's having an episode it's immediately obvious what it is from her physical tics as well as her verbalisation which is notably different from normal communication. It's identifiable even if you didn't know she had Tourettes. You'd be able to work it out she had it. Indeed telling people what's going on they say "well we thought that was the case but we weren't sure" because they havent seen Tourettes 'in the wild' so to speak and for the most part the explanation is enough. Mainly cos her distress and discomfort is very much on display. You can't fake it.

I am comfortable with her being around my son. We have explained it and he gets it. It can be funny. It can be heartbreaking. It can be offensive. It can be embarrassing for those around her. It can put them at risk too. The best thing to do is literally to ignore it because it reduces the stress and anxiety and the tics are more likely to stop and stop more quickly. Staring, making comments or going on about how awful someone is behaving only makes the problem worse which isn't what anyone involved wants.

Honestly if you spend time with someone with severe Tourettes you would soon get over the concept of being offended even if they were saying the most offensive thing ever because you can visibly see the trauma and distress it's causing the person doing it. Even if you initially get upset, you very quickly realise just how awful the condition is and how there isn't offense made. Frankly if you are getting offended I question your own empathy levels - if you are expecting respect and tolerance you need to be able to give it too.

The idea that anyone is being racist, homophobic, etc etc when you see such an episode first hand is really laughable.

Where I have a problem with this current debate is the problem with discussion on the subject on social media is it's coming from people who have had no experience of this and don't have the visual feedback to also consider. Its a theoretical debate not one based on reality. It's a social media story and social experience into thoughts and politics instead of a reflection on the actual condition. It's all about just focusing on the word(s) used not the full behaviour manifestation. As soon as you see this this, it has a very different context and people can see it as well just focusing on the word and the concept of offense being the best all and end all. A tic is visual not just verbal.

The two actors on stage would have seen that from where they were stood. If they don't have prior knowledge and experience of Tourettes it could have completely thrown them and bewildered them. That wasn't fair. But no one was being racist.

They should have been better prepared and informed in advance - for both them and John's benefit. But honestly if you want people with Tourettes to be part of society as anyone else you just have to roll with it unfortunately. Otherwise you are advocating for active significant discrimination on the basis of disability. Being offended by it is unavoidable in certain scenarios but it's not actionable against the person doing it due to their capacity issues and their intent and this is the really important factor. Someone choosing which sexed space to use, is actively free to make that choice in that moment. They have a deliberate attempt to access wrong sex facilities. They have capacity to do this. If they reject third spaces again this is an active choice that isn't available for someone with Tourettes.

There was a massive duty of care failure that occurred by the organisers and broadcasters. This falls on them not the individuals concerned. It has to be a preemptive rather than reactionary response in terms of how you make accomodations and balance rights (which actually isn't a realistic thing to do in many situations - for example if you are out at a restaurant, leaving the restaurant could put someone much more at risk outside from passers by and just changes the situation rather than stopping it). You cant punish or force apologies.

And no he shouldn't apologise for a disability. It should be an explanation instead.

Even then the person is still at risk. And apologising doesn't really help the situation a lot of the time if the next thing you say is a whole bunch of other abusive stuff.

Honestly, I've really not seen many medical conditions I think are this appalling. It's a slow life long torture that impacts on every level of a persons life. You can't compare it to the sex and gender issue. Frankly I think it's offensive to do so and shows a very low level of understanding of the condition.

And being completely honest you can't stop people being offended. That's the nature of the disability. There is no nuance. There is no compromise which doesn't restrict the life of the person to being homebound or institutionalised.

Thanks for a very informative and thoughtful post, Red. I didn’t know most of that.

FrippEnos · 26/02/2026 09:56

OtterlyAstounding · 26/02/2026 00:18

It's not about being performative, it's about making sure a space doesn't tolerate or appear to endorse racist language.

When similar comments were made about Tourette's, they were challenged, vigorously. But racism? Silence.

If you demand that it is seen to be done then you are wanting people to be performative.

frenchnoodle · 26/02/2026 09:59

ProfessorBinturong · 26/02/2026 09:47

In addition to RTB's point about it having been previously agreed with John, he was shouting things from the audience. Editing out audience noise so you can hear the intended speakers more clearly is routine. It's not discriminatory if you're doing it to everyone.

I dont actually know why they had mics in the audience space at all (and would like to know if they had them throughout the audience or only by John's seat).

It's standard to have mics in the audience, they usually move around and capture laughter and reactions, generally they get mixed in and out as needed, otherwise you'll hear whispers and coughing on the TV feed. The fact that this didn't happen seems to point towards the BBC deliberately and willfully deciding not to not.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 26/02/2026 10:05

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2026 05:48

I don't even know how I did that apart from being fat fingered. That's the worst gif to have come up too. I'm so sorry sorry.

I can't apologise enough.

It’s interesting. I didn’t see the post, but my first thought is that it was unintentional because you appear to have shown genuine remorse.

What was missing on the night was any real remorse or conciliatory gesture that might have eased the discomfort of those at the centre of it — particularly the Black people who heard the racial slur, and JD himself. They were all left exposed, seemingly for the sake of viewing figures.

AC’s apology felt like classic gaslighting — “we’re sorry if you were offended” - which shifts responsibility onto the people who were hurt rather than acknowledging the wrongdoing. When it comes to racism the us one the most coommon what White people will gaslight Black people. It's not us its you! AC could also have taken a moment to reiterate the involuntary nature of the tic, and to acknowledge the hurt it may cause — both to the person living with the condition and to those who are unfamiliar with it but find themselves affected by its impact.

If I do something wrong to a stranger, I would show remorse. If it’s someone I know well, or who knows me well, there may not always be the same need to demonstrate it so explicitly, because there is already an understanding of intent and character.

thanks2 · 26/02/2026 10:07

I think this situation is really sad.

People can't help their feelings and its natural to feel upset if someone has offended you regardless of the reason.

But the offender has a disability, and he is also a role model for other people with disabilities to give them courage to face the world. If I was the offended person I would want to be the bigger person and put my arms around this guy and say I accept this is part of your disability its all OK.

OtterlyAstounding · 26/02/2026 10:09

FrippEnos · 26/02/2026 09:56

If you demand that it is seen to be done then you are wanting people to be performative.

I'm not 'demanding' anything, I'm expressing my personal disappointment at the silence in response to racist comments.

Performative in the context you're using means: "done or expressed insincerely or inauthentically, typically with the intention of impressing others or improving one's own image."

So no. Unless you're being insincere, or you're only speaking out to impress others and make yourself look good, it's not performative. Which means if you're telling me that you would be being performative, it says a lot more about you than anything else.

(Personally, I just argued against the racist comments because I think they're gross and hostile.)