John Davison BAFTA Tourette’s incident and competing rights

[slet]

It’s interesting how this is being discussed atm. I see Ash Sarkar has framed it as an example of competing rights between disabled people and victims of racism, forgetting about intersectionality. But there is a struggle from those on the extreme left to see how women’s rights are compromised by ceding to TRAs.

not expressing myself very well but thought it had some interesting parallels with the sex and gender debate.

There are some people in this thread who should stop posting & instead watch I Swear, the film about John Davison that took him to the BAFTAs.

They might learn something.

The inability to see nuance in this situation is not just down to JD supporters.
I will go further and say that most of JD's supporters see the nuance that should be seen here.
The issue on MN has been that JD's supporters have refused to call him racist and this has upset quite a few of the usual suspects.
JD is not racist he is a disabled man with torrettes who blurted out a horrific word due to his disability.
There was no intent, he is not racist.
And people are rightly defending this.

Most /all of JD's supporters also recognise that the word is horrific and will have a massive impact on black and brown people and this should not be discounted or minimised.

But that it should also be recognised that these threads where started due to a disabled man being castagated for something that he cannot help and the irony is that he was at the baftas for a film that was made to educate people about torrettes.

The history attached to that slur does not disappear because it wasn't intentional. Impact on others matters.

So, if I've understood this correctly, the word "n***" is always offensive, even if the person using it doesn't intend it to be offensive.

Surely, in that case, every time a Black person uses the word "n*" whether in rap music or just in conversation with friends, then it's offensive, because someone might perceive it as such. Is that right?

The broadcast started at 7pm, with an actual start time of approximately 5pm to account for the two hour delay right? Social media has red carpet pics of MBJ at 4-4.30pm, meaning he probably arrived just before that, so no I don’t think he was sitting in the venue hours before and was almost certainly backstage during the host’s intro ready to come out and present the first award. So come up with another way he should’ve been well versed in JD’s tics? Sometimes it’s ok to say ‘my bad, probably got that wrong’, I promise it won’t hurt.

And no one’s offended, I’m here to remind you that there were two parties affected in this situation when you are absolutely determined for it to be just one.

The issue on MN has been that JD's supporters have refused to call him racist and this has upset quite a few of the usual suspects.

That's not true, reading through the last few pages of the recent threads. People seem to want validation that it was hurtful and that it's acceptable to feel hurt, and also some people think he should apologise while still acknowledging he couldn't help it. And some people feel frustrated that black people seem to be expected to accept the N word being used and broadcast (whether involuntary or not), and feel that the impact of the word is being minimised.

I've seen very few people call him racist.

More than two parties were affected. It’s been acknowledged. Go and watch the film.

@FrippEnos Off-topic but it's been years since I heard No Pussyfooting, thank you for the username prompt to play it.

What a smug, self-satisfied, self-congratulatory post. It genuinely made me feel sick to read this. Patting yourself on the back for being better than others because you think black people should be ‘better’ than being offended at being publicly called the N word, but sadly aren’t. And you are so disappointed in them for this.

It’s not about J being racist. It’s about the fact his insults are culturally created. They aren’t his individual, unique thoughts. They are drawn from the culture in society. This is why your assessment that it signifies ‘nothing’ is entirely wrong. So when he shouted N at those two successful black men, who were publicly being recognized, it was a reminder to black people of the culture they live in where, no matter what they achieve and what they do, there are still people, too many people, who will still see them ‘just’ as ‘Ns’ . And when everyone rushed to defend J, and to tell black people they needed to be kinder, people like you, it was a reminder to black people of this culture where they are ‘just’ and will never matter as much as others. It seems to me a lot of the offense has been caused to black people by the reaction, reactions like yours, to what J said.

So instead of telling others to do ‘better’ and be more like you, look in the mirror at yourself as someone who needs to be better.

Switch your brain on. @OtterlyAstounding has said pretty much the same as me throughout the discussion; two people who heard a slur deserve some consideration and compassion in that moment (as does the person whose condition caused them to say it) and you think that translates to victimisation? It’s you that needs to educate yourself on the impact of the N word and ask yourself why you’re so determined to be right or ‘win’.

It’s a BAFTA winning film, I’m sure it’ll be a brilliant, informative watch. While I do that, you should go and watch a documentary on black history so you can educate yourself too.

Why do I need to do that? They were offended by an offensive involuntary tic. It’s not difficult to understand why. He also tic-ed towards a white man. That’s not important though.
There’s no villains here. It’s the people who don’t understand Tourette’s who are the problematic ones. The comments are still continuing ‘ooh but why is it race and not x, y, z’, implying he has control, and various ignorant comments, and the constant trying to find racism when there is none. I’d rather watch I Swear again.

You have said "recent threads", yes the dynamic has changed.
But at the start of this there were quite a few posters calling him racist and showing a complete lack of understanding about torrettes.
Some have listened and nwounderstand.
Some have stayed and the discussion has progressed.

But even now that JD has reached out and apologised (se the variety article) some people are still out for his blood and always will be.

This should never have been an either or discussion.
It should never have been about who has 'had the worst life'.
It should have been about how we can have compassion amd understanding for both sides and how the BBC and the BAFTAs massivally fucked up in how it was handled before, during and after the event.

Even now the BBC and the BAFTAs will be trying to slide the issue on to other people.

And once again I will say it shows what a performative grift DEI, inclusion and bekind is too many people and corporations, when the disabled man whose life and movie that they came to celebrate has been castigated because he doesn't fit in to the noce little box that they had for him.

Because, again, intent and impact. Just because he didn’t intend to hurt, the impact is pain. It’s not his fault, he didn’t mean it AND people are upset. Why can’t you understand the nuance of the situation? And yes, the BBC, whom as a daily listener of their radio stations I often defend, are the villains here. They didn’t enough care into stopping the broadcast, they didn’t protect John. They haven’t protected Michael and Delroy because the clip is being used as a racist baton by vile racists online.

You can support John by not minimising how Michael and Delroy felt and potentially still feel. We don’t have to dismiss the feelings of those affected to support John, it is possible to feel for all involved at the upset and direct your anger towards those who had the power and opportunity to at least reduce the fall out but did not, and use this opportunity to educate, instead of arguing that people are not allowed to be hurt by a racist slur purely because of the circumstances of its use.

Can people read? I’ve said I understand the impact on the actors of hearing the word. It’s literally in my post you quoted - ‘They were offended by an offensive involuntary tic. It’s not difficult to understand why. ‘

Wild.

You had posts deleted because you said things which questioned his underlying beliefs and implied that he was being racist. After it being explained to you several times why it wasn't.

Yep.
And how can you ‘not hear it’ when it’s been specifically brought to your attention, and you’ve said you’ll remove from the edit.

They knew what they were fucking doing.

You don’t need to be rude, I can read perfectly well, thank you. And what I read was the rest of your post being utterly dismissive. It is quite clear you don’t care for the other side of this. You want people to watch I Swear and understand Tourette’s but have zero interest in understand the impact of that slur. The language you have used in your post makes that very evident. Maybe you don’t realise how you are coming across, but you sound very dismissive.

No, I have not once on this thread implied he was racist. I have, multiple times, reinforced that I understand that he is not. It's not my problem that you can't grasp that a word can be racist and have a racist impact, without him being considered racist.

@ProudOliveHiker - "... You can support John by not minimising how Michael and Delroy felt and potentially still feel. We don’t have to dismiss the feelings of those affected to support John, it is possible to feel for all involved at the upset ..."

But isn't it then equally true that people can support and empathise with DL and MBJ (and others who were hurt or offended) without demanding that JD must issue some kind of public apology for doing something he had no control over? (Which is something some posters on here still seem to be calling for even if you aren't).

I've never understood the value of making someone apologise for something they had no responsibility for and/or no control over.

The BBC is another matter...

Did you mean to be so rude? So patronising? Fortunately that's your problem, not mine.

Arrogance is not a pretty trait, especially if you're wrong.

It is your problem you don't realise you do not have to use the word 'racist' to imply this about somebody else.

That’s twice you have posted a popcorn eating gif, presumably because of your amusement at the thread. It’s a little bit childish, don’t you think about a serious discussion about racism and disability? Why not just lurk and read instead?

Ok. I don't agree that's what you were saying earlier today though.

Yes. And even though John has apologised people still don’t accept it. It’s very clear that people, not only don’t understand Tourette’s, but that many have no desire to. Which is disgraceful.

As I said in my first message, I think Mumsnet has behaved appallingly on these boards. Someone on another thread said they felt that people with Tourette’s should be in asylums like they used to be. Mindset has not properly managed these boards and We have seen racism and disablism since this incident happened and it’s all disgusting.

The issue with the incident lies with the BBC and with BAFTA’s handling. The gentleman in charge of bafta has resigned. The BBC have issued a weak apology. It’s not enough, they need to be clear how they are going to deal with this in future, so that people like John can be welcome at future events and not feel like they have to leave.