Scotland PVG checks, feeling like a feminist issue?

[SueKeeper]

I was wondering if anyone else is starting to resent the criminal record checking system in Scotland (PVG)? I think it's reached the point where women (who make up the vast majority of volunteers) are bearing a disproportionate financial burden to prevent crimes almost exclusively committed by men. I was wondering if anyone had heard of any kick back or feedback about it now that the rules have changed to be so extremely strict?

I now have 6 PVGs, 2 with schools to accompany my own kids on trips, even the walking bus, 3 with sports clubs and one to be able to help at scouts - I'm never in charge, one on one with kids or taking them to the toilet or anything, just an extra pair of hands. The PVG system has made £350+ checking me this year, taking this from schools and charities.

Now I'm trying to organise a sports event and normally we'd have marshals from the adult arm of the club helping out. They just stand there in a high Vis vest saying "go left." The tighter legislation means we aren't allowed to "offer them the role," without first doing a PVG check on them or I could be in legal trouble. It's just so unrealistic when trying to recruit volunteers, you are almost begging people, not making them jump through hoops. This is financially and legally too much that the event will just not run. The schools are also limiting school trips, nothing spontaneous like going to the local bookshop 5mins away can happen now, bike ability cancelled.

I think it's a feminist issue as kids and women are missing out on enriching experiences and paying money because nobody will ever point out it's to solve a male problem, or even if there was a problem under the less strict guidelines (which matched England). More than 90% of volunteers at our school are women.

I know it's the same government who think men in female prisons is A-OK safeguarding wise - the irony isnt lost on me - but I'd like not to derail to that, if okay.

P S not a new poster but name changed as I've ranted about it a bit locally and within our club!

I agree. Common sense has gone out the window and children will miss out as a result.

Fewer trips, speakers, events etc will be organised until this new rule is either overturned or scaled right back.

It's a fecking joke, and as per usual Scot Gov are creating lots of work to keep people busy and employed and we're all paying for it.

I work ad hoc as an exam invigilator in secondary schools. I am often 1 to 1 with children who have extra time or use a computer. I absolutely do need to have a PVG for that. But I also work part time as a tutor for adults. I need a PVG for that too, in case I ... what? act inappropriately with an adult in a room with 10 other adults present?

I was always clear when involved in PTA and playgroup that of course everyone was PVG checked but that is guarantee of nothing and ANY problems or concerns should be immediately flagged up.

I've wondered for a long time why you can't have a single PVG 'licence' associated with your NI number, viewable online to any prospective employer/event manager etc whom you provide your personal code to. They then log that they are currently 'employing' you.
You would have to do a redeclaration say every year. The police etc have access to the system, which automatically updates if any crime is committed by you (linked to your NI number). If anything changes, the system automatically notifies any employers/groups who you are currently working with. Much safer.

The whole system doesn’t seem fit for purpose. I have just stepped back from extra work and volunteering because I just don’t want to have to apply for all the additional PVG. I already hold one (employer pays) and the other part of my role is in England so I also hold CRB as they are not compatible (employer also pays). Our policy is reapply every 5 years, which isn’t CRB rule but is PVG. Many English NHS policy is on change of role so it isn’t even consistent how often it’s checked.

I agree with pp. you should be registered with a list of employers/interested parties and any change to your registration should be pushed to them. Currently it seems like more of a money generating exercise, although more likely money generating only enough to pay for the admin cost of supplying a system to look like it’s protecting vulnerable people. I personally don’t believe it is actually protecting anyone.

I've looked at some guidance and it says that PVG checks are free for volunteers. Is that wrong? And can't you just apply once and then just use that for any employers or charities you do relevant work for? That's how I read the guidance, but it seems that's wrong too?

I always thought the multiple checks more than a bit mad and the cost is prohibitive for small groups - but hadn’t thought about the fact it’s mostly women affected - and that matches my experience of volunteers

free pvgs don’t apply for volunteer in schools

It’s just ridiculous that you can’t just get one to cover all when you’re not even going to be either alone or responsible for a child. I need to get one done for both Brownies and Beavers but have dragged my heels on it.

We're registered with Volunteer Scotland which makes the PVGs free - scot gov waiver. Are not all voluntary organisations?

No you need individual PVG checks for each thing. I have 4 or 5 now. Amazingly I needed separate ones for going on a class trip, volunteering in the school library and being a member of the PTA. all at the exact same place. So very stupid.

I haven’t paid for anything but the school has and that makes me angry. They have no money for basic needs but are faffing around with this paperwork nonstop.

And I think you’re right in it being a feminist issue. It’s unlikely for kids clubs you’re going to get both parents to do it so inevitably it’ll be mostly the mums.

Not school related groups

and also not groups that are not “targeted” at children even though you may have children as members

I do understand why they're not portable. I recently got a new one and it went straight to the safeguarding officer at the organisation, not through me at all, so there was no way for me to interfere with it. It felt more safe.
Also, it's only a snapshot in time, so if they were portable how long would you let people carry them for? If I had a scouts one last year it doesn't tell a new organisation next year that i've still not done anything criminal

This, you should never be out of pocket with PVGs although i do think having numerous is a waste of money and time i remember you just needed an enhanced disclosure and that was you it just followed you around.

That school situation seems crazy - surely it can be coordinated within one school. I don't do a new one for each activity with the organisation I volunteer with.

You are mixing the time the check is valid for - eg a year - /5 years - and making them portable - which could be by you giving them a digital key that they can use to check your certificate status on line

The school ones seem unessecary surely if you are a school volunteer you only need 1.

the new PVG rules are supposed to be simpler long term they will for 5 years and you will give permission for new emploter voluntary organisation or chairity to view your disclosure
the 5 year system starts in April, they will be starting with renewals for those whose original disclosure was pre 2016
They are free for charities via volunteer Scotland unless you are self employed you should not be paying for your own, it is the employer who pays, as an invigilator mine was paid for, y one for church youth work was free as it''s a charity
you should create and log into your disclosure scotland where you can update addresses with proof and names with proof ie marriage certificate etc

They are not free for voluntary groups, the cost is covered elsewhere - for now. I can’t see that continuing. I have no idea why they couldn’t not operate a central register so when you have a second/third/tenth role that organisation couldn’t just be provided with your number to look you up on that register. Isn’t that what happens in England?

It is also a nightmare for small community group organisers - it is a criminal offence not to do one where necessary, and a criminal
offence to do one where not necessary. And everyone gives conflicting information about when it is necessary.

And if your potential volunteers have lived overseas at all in the last ten years…

Employees are often expected to pay for their own, including teachers:

Please note, successful candidates will be expected to meet the cost of the relevant PVG check (£59 or £18), which will be deducted from your salary following commencement of employment.

https://myjobscotland.gov.uk/councils/north-ayrshire-council/jobs/teacher-457899

We would need charitable status for it to be free, which a lot of small clubs don't have, nor schools. Also, the PTAs are considered a different organisation again, so their events need different PVGs to the school ones. Some are covered by insurance from the national sporting body, but that just means higher costs to join. It's true that probably scouts didn't have to pay for me (I'd overlooked that, sorry). Even if you have to apply for charitable status, it's even more time on paperwork for the same (mainly female) volunteers. Today I was told that the school one I have for sports/trips doesn't cover the German exchange, and I'll have to pay £59 (double as both parents) for that. DH and I will then have 8 PVGs between us. I often volunteer at parkrun and can't see how that won't be more of the same.

The school club subs for hockey/football/rugby etc, that always need a parent there just to stand around, have doubled as well. I'd like to see some proof that these volunteers freezing their ass off and being nowhere near the kids have ever committed a crime before we are all forced to pay to prevent it.

The club thing is complicated when we are asking people to help who are not members of our specific club, so they are not covered by our national organisation or status. It's normal to ask the adults from the equivalent clubs to help, or it was. It's also the threat of legal action if you just put out a general "can anyone help," email and you can't engage with anyone who replies without running a check (which can take weeks) on them first. Our school had a really nice "can anyone stay after pick up for half an hour so we can go collect leaves at the park/walk to the nursing home to deliver cakes etc" which has all stopped. There might be a pool of checked volunteers in the future, but it has to be renewed every 5 years, someone responsible for the list etc. It's easier for things not to happen at all, which will definitely be the case for a lot of schools.

I was genuinely surprised that there isn't a better system in place for this roll out, one with a police number type system, as described above. I don't remember being asked about it prior to roll out, or even much discussion about it happening. I thought there might be a pushback, but it probably looks politically bad to ask for less safeguarding.

I'm going to ask the school if I can only pay £19 for the additional ones, thank you for pointing this out!

No im not. I think there’s a difference between my PVG lasting five years with an organisation I work with for five years who know me through those five years vs it being portable to a new organisation four and a half years after being done who don’t know where I’ve been or what I’ve been doing since it was issued.

Actually I’m pretty happy we are so much more vigilant checking out volunteers and keeping kids safe.

I’m a volunteer with 2 pvgs.

The portability is the check not the record. If registered on a central database then it should be very straightforward to alert all organisations registered against your name should an incident occur - like they do in England with DBS checks.