Guardian article on the GRA in Ireland

[ItsCoolForCats]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/dec/23/ireland-gender-recognition-act-decade

From the article, quoting Kevin Humphries, a Labour politician:

“We were very fortunate in Ireland that we were able to do the legislation in an era of openness and progressive discussion,” he says.
In stark contrast with Scotland, where attempts by the Holyrood parliament to introduce a similar model prompted an explosion of grassroots opposition, the Irish process was relatively smooth.

Given that many people in Ireland had no idea they were voting for Self ID, which was tacked on to the marriage equality referendum (and definitely not transparently), the above is a very dishonest framing of what happened. And I'm not sure it would have gone so smoothly if there had been awareness of what people were actually voting for.

But I was heartened to read about an amendment stating that the act doesn't change sex for the purpose of imprisonment has passed its first stage. I wasn't aware of that. Hopefully there will be more amendments to follow.

And interesting that Libby Brooks refrains from using female pronouns for Barbie Kardashian, even though BK has a GRC and is legally female 🤔

Most of this stuff everywhere has only been 'accepted' in that its imposition has been done by stealth and then supported by screams of 'no debate'.

The GRA was debated fully in the Irish parliament - well, I use the word 'debate' loosely, as every single party, right across the spectrum, without exception, spoke in favour of it, the only negative seemed to be 'what about the children?' because the act didn't cover people under 18.

In the run-up to the GRA, TENI Transgender Equality Network Ireland, took on the self-appointed role of experts on gender at parliamentary committees etc. Everybody from politicians to doctors deferred to them and took their 'expertise' at face value. 'No debate' - not that debate was supressed, but that TENI acted as if guided step by step by the Denton's document. [see below]

Interestingly TENI is still using the discredited WPATH as an authority re transgender healthcare. But they'll get away with it because they are still 'the experts'.

There's a good analysis of the Denton's document here:
Analysis of the Dentons Document: A How to Manual - Women Speak Tasmania
'In 2019, a guide produced by global law firm Dentons with activist partners revealed how trans rights were advanced across Europe. The strategy? Incremental reforms, political gatekeepers, friendly media, and avoiding open debate on controversial issues like children, prisons, and sport.
Far from grassroots change, the document shows a carefully managed campaign designed to frame self-ID laws as harmless “paperwork updates” while sidelining public scrutiny....'

What do you think of this claim, Marie?

"Una Mullally, the author of In the Name of Love: The Movement for Marriage Equality in Ireland, argues that mainstream Irish feminism has historically been more inclusive".
“There is a core of solidarity in Irish culture more generally that cuts across those lines of class and gender and doesn’t find itself entrenched in them as much as it does in Britain,” she says.

Are there a better class of feminists in Ireland than those grassroots bigots across the water?

The Movement for Marriage Equality in Ireland, argues that mainstream Irish feminism has historically been more inclusive

In that it includes men?

I think the accurate analysis is that Ireland has historically found it difficult to enforce safeguarding boundaries and protect women's rights.

“There is a core of solidarity in Irish culture more generally that cuts across those lines of class and gender and doesn’t find itself entrenched in them as much as it does in Britain,” she says.

Or in other words 'feminism? What's that for?'

When attempts by [a] parliament to introduce a similar model prompt an explosion of grassroots opposition, isn’t that a massive clue to that government that the population may not support the legislation they are trying to push through? Makes the rest of that sentence sound even more like he is pleased to have deceived the electorate.

Slimy.

The bill passed a matter of months after the people of Ireland voted overwhelmingly to legalise same-sex marriage, which created “a whole moment socially around LGBT+ equality”

Because nobody thought about the fact that T+ has very little to do with LGB unless you are homophobic.

I'd have to mull that over,ItsCoolForCats... <mmmmm...mull.. mulled wine😛>
but a point that comes to mind immediately is that Ireland is a small place - there are only 5m or so of us [I remember when the population was 2.5m! But it was 8m before the Great Famine, so there's a way to go yet..]
whereas there are nearly 70m in the UK.

The feminist community is therefore small. Not only do we not have the momentum that comes from a bigger 'talent pool' but not being very numerous also means that we tend to slot in with other groups - academic, trade union, human rights groups etc. For instance, a separate lesbian group -not separatist, just separate from the general L&G movement - would find it hard to thrive simply because of numbers.

There used to be a joke that it was time to emigrate when you realised that you had had a relationship with all the lesbians in Dublin😄

The big National Women's Council, which was founded in 1973, has significant reach and influence, but -
'By ‘woman’ we refer to any person who identifies as a woman'
and it has a number of gender ideological groups, like TENI Transgender Equality Network Ireland, as affiliates.

There is GC activism in Ireland, but it it an uphill battle, with lots of commitment but not much strength in numbers.

I noted in an interview that Naomi Cunningham said she has Irish grandparents, so she qualifies to play for Ireland - if she ever wants to pull on the green jersey, she'd be welcomed with open arms

edited but then I edited out the edit !

Interesting analysis, Marie, thanks.

I am thinking of my family in a rural-ish part of the country. They are very much live and let live, but would be pretty appalled at the thought of boys/men being able to play camogie, for example. They have no idea Ireland has self ID.

I know a few GC people in ireland, but I think you are right about lacking strength in numbers. We need to send Naomi Cunningham over to radicalise more people. They'll love her once she mentions her grandparents were Irish 🤣

Una Mullally, the author of In the Name of Love: The Movement for Marriage Equality in Ireland, argues that mainstream Irish feminism has historically been more inclusive".
“There is a core of solidarity in Irish culture more generally that cuts across those lines of class and gender and doesn’t find itself entrenched in them as much as it does in Britain,” she says.

This is intriguing. Does the second paragraph come straight after the first, as above, in whatever document this quote is taken from? Because I can see that the campaign for gay marriage could cut across lines of sex and class, just like the 20th century campaigns for gay rights did.

But feminism can't really cut across lines of sex, or 'gender', because it's specifically about women's rights. (I'm guessing that Una is using the word 'gender' in its original meaning of sex, ie biological reality, as the campaign was to legalise same-sex marriage.) Male allies are welcome. But men claiming womanhood as their 'gender' are the opposite of feminist, as they actively overturn women's rights when they intrude in women's single-sex spaces or take women's sports prizes.

The bottom line is that Ireland has always been a deeply misogynist society and the trans rights movement has been an absolute gift for those who want to play 'progressive' but who ultimately hate women.

I agree about 'The Plain People of Ireland', as Myles na gCopaleen called them, not just not approving of the GRA and self-ID, but not even knowing about them.

When canvassers/candidates in the last General Election called to my door, I brought the issue up with them, with a very faux-chummy 'C'mon, you don't really believe men can become women, do you? So what's with this GRC and self-ID business?'
I was surprised by the number who either agreed that I had a point, or expressed surprise that it was their party's policy!

But it's low down in the list of public priorities, I think - housing and homelessness and emigration are way out in front

It would be great to be able harness all that groundswell of sex realism, from the camogie parents and the likes, and send the message up to the politicians and media.

Unfortunately I don't see the GRA or anything gender-related making it to our High Court, in the foreseeable...

As someone said, we've gone from one bunch of men in frocks telling us what we can and can't do, to a different bunch of men in frocks telling us what we can and can't do do😠

Absolutely. It would be funny if it wasn't such a shit show 😵‍💫

Pedantic observation on population. There are over 7 million of us now, just over five million in the Republic, just under 2 million in Northern Ireland. Still a lower population than before the catastrophe of the 1840s.

Point taken, Deano, but the stupid piece of legislation under discussion, the GRA, is a Republic of Ireland law.

The 2 million people the other side of the Border may benefit from UK court decisions, etc, insofar as they apply to NI, so they may do a bit better than us in terms of legalised genderwoo .

Very true.

The marriage referendum was specifically about allowing two people to marry each other without distinction as to their sex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-fourth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland#See_also

No reference to gender, no hint that gender was an issue. No suggestion that we were going to have gender recognition imposed on us, although the Lydia Foy case (always alarming in that it put lying about a known fact into the law) had made that something that was going to have to be examined.

The GRA was introduced for some reason that was in no way connected to anything we voted on.

If I had known they were going to piggy-back that, I would have voted no, despite my wish for people to be able to marry each other.

btw, I'd be interested to know if the Irish wording held any clues as to their nefarious intentions.

I spend a reasonable amount of time in Ireland mostly traveling between Dublin’s city and the airport and in the past 24mths have had at least a dozen conversations with taxi drivers who are extremely articulate about self ID, including how it was inappropriately hitched to gay marriage and the specific risks to woman and girls in sport.

it’s been fascinating. I generally think taxi drivers are a good barometer of societal thoughts. Ireland is waking up and they don’t like what they’re seeing.

Seems to me that ironically one big voice in the trans debate right now happens to be Enoch Burke and family. Look them up.

EB is in prison indefinitely for breaching a court order not to enter the school from which he was dismissed for insubordinate behavior in public towards his Principal.

EB asserts that he was dismissed for refusing to call a trans student by the chosen gender. But in fact it was his outrageous behaviour that led to his sacking. Of course he is portraying the matter as a GC freedom of speech issue. Which would be a fair assumption, except that is not the case. At least thats my understanding of it and welcome correction if I'm wrong.

The Burke family is notorious. I'll let you look them up youselves.

if this is what GC looks like in Ireland. Gawd help us!

I actually think there is significant subtle roll back happening in Ireland. Certainly the public awareness has really increased and people are not as on board as they once were. Sport with that Italian guy playing GAA and Barbie had a significant impact,

We were blessed that within the medical community, a teeny tiny community, they had push back from very serious significant voices at specialist level, particularly endocrinology, which given how few of them exist means that treatment is nearly impossible to get.

GPs often won’t touch these issues with a bargepole so you’d have a job transitioning in Ireland although I know they do refer patients onto Europe from time to time.

A politician being so up his own arse not knowing which way the wind is blowing is pure hubris and not at all a reflection of the changes on the ground.

Yes they absolutely are. They hear everything.

Burke has been super useful to the TRAs, to frame their argument as 'look who's against us' argument, just exactly as you are doing.

But tbh, it's outlived its usefulness and everyone I know is sick to the back teeth of hearing about Burke and abysmal handling of this issue by all concerned.

I think Ireland is a very interesting case study here, as it is politically very open to gender ideology (obviously) but socially much, much less so.

Most Irish people would not be comfortable with the idea of men imposing on women's spaces in this way and I think it's telling that the most visible TiMs are from other countries originally (or are students, which also tracks).

Then there's also the fact that the health service never really got started on it, as referenced upthread.

All in all, I think it's done relatively little damage in Ireland, the situation in Limerick prison being an awful and notable exception.

My suspicion about the influence of Enoch Burke is that he is why we are getting the tech to tag criminals at home rather than putting them in gaol.