Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

OK, let's talk about gender.

93 replies

GarlicRound · 13/12/2025 06:48

Warning: I've just realised I've been up all night and really need to get some sleep - so this is a post-and-run (until the evening). Second warning added: I tend to ramble a bit when tired. Apologies for the length!

Gender. Not the linked concepts of gender identity or grammatical gender, but the cultural expectations and impositions placed by societies on their members according to sex.

Like everyone else, I live in a society so am not free of externally applied or socially internalised gender. I have tried to resist it, personally and politically, since childhood. Since discovering feminism at 17, I've recognised it as a tool of patriarchal oppression.

I really hope people will run with it. Please raise questions, issues and share perspectives. We do this topic from time to time, so I'll kick off with a less-discussed angle: men 😄

A young male may grow up in a warlike society, which expects and requires men to be warriors. He may not feel himself to be warrior material, despite all his training. He may be distressed by violence, reluctant to hurt people, and far better suited to tending the wounded due to his irrepressibly kind disposition.

In a warrior society, violence defines a man. Our chap isn't violent, therefore he is not a man. He's kind and nurturing: qualities expected of a woman. By the logic of his culture, then, he is a woman - a woman with a penis (unless they cut it off to make sure). To make sense of him, they dress him in women's clothes and send him to do women's work, living with the women.

There is an obvious intersection here with gender identity and genderism. He might, if he were aware of the concept, 'identify as a woman' because this is the only explanation his society provides for a peace-loving male. We have evidence of this happening in Native American cultures with 'two-spirits' and archaeological finds of male skeletons with feminine trappings, among others.

It only means the guy 'is a woman' in terms of his people's highly prescriptive sex roles. The warrior stereotype for men still pertains in more flexible societies like ours: men are bigger, stronger than women, and more likely to be violent; in many ways the more physically dominant of men still overrule the gentler types.

It's one of the routes by which gender disadvantages males. There are others. By and large, though, sex stereotypes disadvantage women more widely and profoundly.

OP posts:
Seethlaw · 14/12/2025 13:45

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 13:32

Interesting. So in your view the male propensity toward violence is not part of 'sex', so is therefore part of 'gender'?
Because the men could stop themselves being violent if they tried, and if society did not condone or applaud male violence they would not be violent, so it can't be under 'sex'?
(Before you say society does not applaud male violence, look at the popular reaction to John Prescott punching a protester who threw an egg at him.)

Heh, funny, because I had precisely male violence as an example in mind :D

So in your view the male propensity toward violence is not part of 'sex', so is therefore part of 'gender'?

Not quite. I think the impulse for violence is indeed a part of sex, but that actually engaging in violent behaviours is a choice, which is indeed heavily influenced by the fact that it's considered socially acceptable, even laudable, for men to act aggressive and dominating. So it's both sex and gender.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 13:50

DeanElderberry · 14/12/2025 13:39

Of course I call it sex-based because that it what it is.

Gender is a function of grammar. It was not applied to human beings until the 1990s, when I had already been a feminist for decades, and it has caused nothing but confusion.

Why use an formless and unnecessary word for something that already has a clear and unambiguous centuries-old word?

Sex.

The OP specifically said she wasn't talking about grammatical gender.

If you think the word 'gender' is unnecessary, what word would you use for the social phenomenon that (on average) women like to wear dresses and men like sports?
You could call it "makey-uppy, navel-gazing fantasy bolloxology" but that is a bit of a mouthful.
You could call it 'people adopting sex-based stereotypes', but I question whether dresses and sports are sex-based or not.
You could call it 'people adopting gendered stereotypes' but there that sneaky word gender has crept back in.

I like the term 'gendered behaviour' as it is short and clear (although the question of what exactly is 'gender-based' and what is 'sex-based' is very unclear)

DeanElderberry · 14/12/2025 13:55

It is just sex.

There is no need for any other word to describe sex differences in presentation and behaviour. We got along perfectly well without gender until the late 1990s and we don't need it it now.

There is also loads of other stuff about fashion and manners and customs and etiquette and that old chestnut class, all more or less culturally specific.

But sex is sex.

DeanElderberry · 14/12/2025 13:56

and gender does not exist

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 13:57

Seethlaw · 14/12/2025 13:45

Heh, funny, because I had precisely male violence as an example in mind :D

So in your view the male propensity toward violence is not part of 'sex', so is therefore part of 'gender'?

Not quite. I think the impulse for violence is indeed a part of sex, but that actually engaging in violent behaviours is a choice, which is indeed heavily influenced by the fact that it's considered socially acceptable, even laudable, for men to act aggressive and dominating. So it's both sex and gender.

If we want a society free of gender-based expectations and prohibitions, is it a bit unrealistic to say that in order to achieve this people have to always suppress their sex-based impulses in order to behave in a gender-neutral way?
Is that not expecting too much of people?

Could we not have a society free of arbitrary gender (dresses & make up for women, toy cars for boys, etc) and yet accept sex-based behaviour as being somewhat inevitable?

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 14:02

DeanElderberry · 14/12/2025 13:55

It is just sex.

There is no need for any other word to describe sex differences in presentation and behaviour. We got along perfectly well without gender until the late 1990s and we don't need it it now.

There is also loads of other stuff about fashion and manners and customs and etiquette and that old chestnut class, all more or less culturally specific.

But sex is sex.

I assume you are not actually saying, in reply to my post, that the social phenomenon that (on average) women like to wear dresses and men like sports is "just sex"?

What is your word for "loads of other stuff about fashion and manners and customs and etiquette and that old chestnut class, all more or less culturally specific"?
We need words to describe observable phenomena.

DeanElderberry · 14/12/2025 14:04

Expecting people to suppress their instincts is an important subset of manners, customs, civility, etiquette, adult life.

We are adult human beings, not impulse-driven beasts.

Just as with language, we all learn to code-switch. At a semi-formal meal in the UK I would be expected to rest a hand not holding cutlery in my lap; in the Netherlands I would be expected to rest it on the table. Not important, not significant, involving a tiny adjustment based on common usage. We do it all the time. See fashion, again.

ParmaVioletTea · 14/12/2025 14:07

Could we not have a society free of arbitrary gender (dresses & make up for women, toy cars for boys, etc) and yet accept sex-based behaviour as being somewhat inevitable?

Hmmmmm. The problem is, historically, this was precisely how women & girls were oppressed and excluded.

Because women had babies, therefore they were "naturally" maternal. Which morphed into the false idea that they weren't capable of anything else.

Amd so on ...

Seethlaw · 14/12/2025 14:12

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 13:57

If we want a society free of gender-based expectations and prohibitions, is it a bit unrealistic to say that in order to achieve this people have to always suppress their sex-based impulses in order to behave in a gender-neutral way?
Is that not expecting too much of people?

Could we not have a society free of arbitrary gender (dresses & make up for women, toy cars for boys, etc) and yet accept sex-based behaviour as being somewhat inevitable?

Why would it be too much to expect people not to act on every impulse, sex-based or not, that goes through their mind/body? How are we supposed to have any kind of society at all if people are all allowed to do whatever they feel like in the moment, with no regards as to the consequences?

Could we not have a society free of arbitrary gender (dresses & make up for women, toy cars for boys, etc) and yet accept sex-based behaviour as being somewhat inevitable?

Sex-based impulses, yes; sex-based behaviours, no. Moreover, how would you have a gender-free society, if sex-based impulses were supported? "Men are violent" is a gender stereotype, but it would be fully endorsed in a society that let men act on their violent impulses whenever they feel like it.

WallaceinAnderland · 14/12/2025 15:08

If we had a completely genderfree environment - nothing ascribed to either sex, just individuals living as they want, presumably there would be no need for anyone to transition because there would be nothing to transition to or from.

GallantKumquat · 14/12/2025 15:12

I've been reading the collection of Sontag's 60s and 70s feminist works, On Women. In general the collected essays were not well received when the book came out in 2023. In terms of its topicality it's dated and it's very much seeped in the New Left Marxism of the time, some of which (especially) hasn't aged well. An example of a poor review is:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jun/05/on-women-by-susan-sontag-review-some-sister-she-was

And it's hard not to agree with some of Cooke's points.

But what I find fascinating about the essays is that they prefigure 'gender'. It's striking how much Butler's Gender Trouble tried to solve the problems Sontag posed. Sontag only uses the term 'gender' once, and when she does it's simple as a euphonic synonym for sex. She also doesn't use the word present - as in presenting as masculine or feminine - instead she talks about stereotypes, class (in the materialist sense), behaviour, and (interestingly) depolarisation of the sexes.

In general her position is that women must accept their sex (of course) but actively eliminate all stereotypes so that only the minimal, essential differences of sex are left and mitigate those so they don't disadvantage women. This contrasts with Butler who tries to salvage all stereo-typed behaviour of both sexes and allow them to be resorted between men and women - and insists that they all have equal value. Sontag by contrast, usually (but not always) sees the stereotypes of women as being inferior and to be eliminated. But in general her goal is levelling of differences.

2. In the process of liberating women, do you give equal importance to economic liberation and to sexual liberation?

The question seems to me to reveal the underlying weakness of the very concept of “liberation.” Unless made more specific, “women’s liberation” is an empty goal—and one which blurs the focus and dilutes the energy of women’s struggle. I am not sure that the economic and the sexual are two different kinds of liberation. But suppose that they are or, at least, that they can be considered separately. Without more clarity about what women are being liberated from and for, it is meaningless to ask whether both liberations are equally important.

The notion of “economic liberation” can be used to cover up the real issues. That women have access to a wide variety of jobs outside the home for which they are properly paid is certainly a primary, unnegotiable demand. The key to women’s psychological and cultural underdevelopment is the fact that most women do not support themselves—neither in the literal (economic) nor metaphoric (psychological, cultural) sense. But it is hardly enough for women to secure the possibility of earning money through the opening up of more jobs, through the creation of free facilities for the care of young children. Work must not be merely an option, an alternative to the still more common (and normative) “career” of housewife and mother. It must be expected that most women will work, that they will be economically independent (whether married or not) just as men are. Without work, women will never break the chains of dependence on men—the minimal prerequisite for their becoming fully adult. Unless they work, and their work is usually as valuable as their husbands’, married women have not even the chance of gaining real power over their own lives, which means the power to change their lives. The arts of psychological coercion and conciliation for which women are notorious—flattery, charm, wheedling, glamour, tears—are a servile substitute for real influence and autonomy.

Simply being able to work, however, hardly means that a woman is “liberated.” Large numbers of women already do work, and of these a minority already earns wages that guarantee economic independence; yet most women who work remain as dependent as ever on men. The reason is that employment itself is organized along sexist lines. The colonialized status of women is confirmed and indeed strengthened by the sexist division of labor. Women do not participate gainfully in modern work on the same footing as men. They play a supportive, backup role in the economy. What they do in “the world” tends to reproduce their image as “household” (serving and nurturing) creatures; they are considered unfit for large executive responsibilities. Thus, women cannot be said to be economically liberated until they perform all activities now performed by men, on the same terms (with respect to wages, standards of performance, exposure to risk) as men—thereby relinquishing the prerogatives of the fool, the child, and the servant. Their economic liberation is essential not merely to the psychological and moral well-being of individual women. Until they become important to the economy, not just as a reserve labor pool but because in large numbers they possess the major professional and executive skills, women have no means of exercising political power, which means gaining control of institutions and having an effective say in how society will change in the coming decades. Once again: liberation means power—or it hardly means anything at all.

The notion of “sexual liberation” seems to me even more suspect. The ancient double standard, which imputes to women less sexual energy and fewer sexual desires than men (and punishes them for behavior condoned in men), is clearly a way of keeping women in their place. But to demand for women the same privileges of sexual experimentation that men have is not enough, since the very conception of sexuality is an instrument of repression. Most sexual relationships act out the attitudes which oppress women and perpetuate male privilege. Merely to remove the onus placed on the sexual expressiveness of women is a hollow victory if the sexuality they become freer to enjoy remains the old one that converts women into objects. The mores of late, urban capitalist society have been for some time, as everyone has noticed, increasingly more “permissive,” penalizing women much less than before for behaving like sexual beings outside the context of monogamous marriage. But this already “freer” sexuality mostly reflects a spurious idea of freedom: the right of each person, briefly, to exploit and dehumanize someone else.

Without a change in the very norms of sexuality, the liberation of women is a meaningless goal. Sex as such is not liberating for women. Neither is more sex.

The question is: What sexuality are women to be liberated to enjoy? The only sexual ethic liberating for women is one which challenges the primacy of genital heterosexuality. A nonrepressive society, a society in which women are subjectively and objectively the genuine equals of men, will necessarily be an androgynous society. Why? Because the only other plausible terms on which the oppression of women could be ended are that men and women decide to live apart, and that is impossible. Separatism does remain plausible as a way of putting an end to the oppression of “colored” peoples by the white race. Conceivably, the different races originating in different parts of the planet could agree to live quite separately again (with the habits and mentalities of each strictly protected against all incursions of cultural as well as economic imperialism). But women and men will undoubtedly always cohabit. If, therefore, the answer to sexism—unlike racism—is not even conceivably separatism, then defending the distinct moral and aesthetic “traditions” of each sex (to preserve something equivalent to “cultural plurality”) and attacking the single standard of intellectual excellence or rationality as male “cultural imperialism” (to revalidate the unknown and despised “women’s culture”) are misleading tactics in the struggle to liberate women.

The aim of struggle should not be to protect the differences between the two sexes but to undermine them. To create a nonrepressive relation between women and men means to erase as far as possible the conventional demarcation lines that have been set up between the two sexes, to reduce the tension between women and men that arises from “otherness.” As everyone has noticed, there has been a lively tendency among young people in recent years to narrow and even confuse sex differences in clothes, hairstyles, gestures, taste. But this first step toward depolarizing the sexes, partly co-opted within capitalist forms of consumership as mere “style” (the commerce of unisex boutiques), will be denied its political implications unless the tendency takes root at a deeper level.

The more profound depolarization of the sexes must take place in the world of work and, increasingly, in sexual relations themselves. As “otherness” is reduced, some of the energy of sexual attraction between the sexes will decline. Women and men will certainly continue to make love and to pair off in couples. But women and men will no longer primarily define each other as potential sexual partners. In a nonrepressive nonsexist society, sexuality will in one sense have a more important role than it has today—because it will be more diffused. Homosexual choices will be as valid and respectable as heterosexual choices; both will grow out of a genuine bisexuality. (Exclusive homosexuality—which, like exclusive heterosexuality, is learned—would be much less common in a nonsexist society than it is at present.) But in such a society, sexuality will in another sense be less important than it is now—because sexual relations will no longer be hysterically craved as a substitute for genuine freedom and for so many other pleasures (intimacy, intensity, feeling of belonging, blasphemy) which this society frustrates.

7. And in this case, what will be the long-term and the short-term objectives?

The important difference is not between short-term and long-term objectives but, as I have already indicated, between objectives which are reformist (or liberal) and those which are radical. From suffrage onward, most of the objectives that women have sought have been reformist.

An example of the difference. To demand that women receive equal pay for equal work is reformist; to demand that women have access to all jobs and professions, without exception, is radical. The demand for equal wages does not attack the system of sexual stereotyping. Paying a woman the same wages a man gets if she holds the same job he does establishes a merely formal kind of equity. When roughly half the people doing every kind of job are women, when all forms of employment and public responsibility become fully coeducational, sexual stereotyping will end—not before.

In underlining this difference once again, I am not suggesting that the reformist gains are negligible. They are eminently worth struggling for—as evidenced by the fact that these demands are, for most people, too “radical.” Most of the reformist demands are far from being granted. In that slow procession toward fulfilling the reformist demands, the communist countries have taken a clear lead. Next, but well behind them in terms of the degree of “liberal” enlightenment of public policy, come the capitalist countries with a Protestant background, notably Sweden, Denmark, England, Holland, the United States, Canada, and New Zealand. Lagging far behind to the rear are those countries with a Catholic cultural base, like France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Mexico, and the countries of Central and South America—where married women cannot buy and dispose of property without the signature of their husbands; and where the right to divorce, not to mention the legality of abortion, remains fiercely contested. And still further behind the Latin countries, almost out of sight, are the countries with a Muslim culture—where women are still subjected to ferociously strict forms of social segregation, economic exploitation, and sexual surveillance.…

Despite the cultural unevenness with which the situation of women is being ameliorated, I would predict that most of the reformist demands will be granted in most countries by the end of the century. My point is that then the struggle will have only begun. The granting of these demands can leave intact all the oppressive and patronizing attitudes that make women into second-class citizens. Women have to feel, and learn to express, their anger.

Women must start making concrete demands—first of all upon themselves and then upon men. For a start, women can note their acceptance of full adult status by symbolic acts, like not changing their last names when they marry. They can wean themselves from the enslaving concern with their personal appearance by which they consent to make themselves into objects. (By giving up makeup, and the reassuring ministrations of beauty parlors, they symbolically renounce the narcissism and vanity that are, insultingly, deemed normal in women.) They can refuse the rituals of male gallantry which dramatize their inferior position and convert it into a seduction. As often as not women should light men’s cigarettes for them, carry their suitcases, and fix their flat tires. Even the trivial acts by which women ignore preassigned “feminine” roles have weight, helping to educate both women and men. They are the necessary prologue to any serious consideration on the part of women of the institutional framework for their liberation. This thinking must coincide with the creation of experimental institutions run by women, for women—living collectives, work collectives, schools, day-care centers, medical centers—which will embody the solidarity of women, their increasingly politicized consciousness, and their practical strategies for outwitting the system of sexual stereotyping.

The liberation of women has both short-term and long-term political meaning. Changing the status of women is not only a political objective in itself but prepares for (as well as constitutes part of) that radical change in the structure of consciousness and society, which is what I understand by revolutionary socialism. It is not simply that the liberation of women need not wait for the advent of socialism, so defined. It cannot wait.

I do not think socialism can triumph unless big victories for feminism have been won beforehand. The liberation of women is a necessary preparation for building a just society—not the other way around, as Marxists always claim. For if it does happen the other way around, women are likely to find their liberation a fraud. Should the transformation of society according to revolutionary socialism be undertaken without a prior militant independent women’s movement, women will find that they have merely passed from the hegemony of one oppressive moral ethic to another.

------

And in another section:

Thus, there are certain activities that only all-women’s groups can—or will want to—perform. Only groups composed entirely of women will be diversified enough in their tactics, and sufficiently “extreme.” Women should lobby, demonstrate, march. They should take karate lessons. They should whistle at men in the streets, raid beauty parlors, picket toy manufacturers who produce sexist toys, convert in sizeable numbers to militant lesbianism, operate their own free psychiatric and abortion clinics, provide feminist divorce counseling, establish makeup withdrawal centers, adopt their mothers’ family names as their last names, deface billboard advertising that insults women, disrupt public events by singing in honor of the docile wives of male celebrities and politicians, collect pledges to renounce alimony and giggling, bring lawsuits for defamation against the mass-circulation “women’s magazines,” conduct telephone harassment campaigns against male psychiatrists who have sexual relations with their women patients, organize beauty contests for men, put up feminist candidates for all public offices. Though no single action is necessary, the “extremist” acts are valuable in themselves, because they help women to raise their own consciousness. And, however much people claim to be shocked or put off by such acts, their rhetoric does have a positive effect upon the silent majority. Performed by even a small minority, this guerrilla theater forces millions to become defensive about hitherto barely conscious sexist attitudes, accustoming them to the idea that these attitudes are at least not self-evident. (I do not exclude the utility of real guerrilla violence as well.)

Undeterred by the fear of confirming sexist clichés (e.g., women as creatures of emotion, incapable of being detached, objective), militant groups must commit themselves to behavior that does violate the stereotypes of femininity. A common way of reinforcing the political passivity of women has been to say they will be more effective and influential if they act with “dignity,” if they don’t violate decorum, if they remain charming. Women should show their contempt for this form of intimidation disguised as friendly advice. Women will be much more effective politically if they are rude, shrill, and—by sexist standards—“unattractive.” They will be met with ridicule, which they should do more than bear stoically. They should, indeed, welcome it. Only when their acts are described as “ridiculous” and their demands are dismissed as “exaggerated” and “unreasonable” can militant women be sure they are on the right track.

On Women by Susan Sontag review – some sister she was…

This new collection of 70s journalism exposes a sexist and wrongheaded essayist with an unwarranted reputation

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jun/05/on-women-by-susan-sontag-review-some-sister-she-was

DeanElderberry · 14/12/2025 15:15

Adults cannot live 'as they want' for many reasons, some of them rooted in physical sex.

Our bodies carry many constraints that we cannot detach ourselves from.

I'd love to have perfect eyesight. My friend with dwarfism would love to be full height and not crippled with arthritis. I've lost too many people to heart disease and cancer. It's up to us to live the best way we can in the bodies we have for a long as we're able.

Seethlaw · 14/12/2025 15:18

WallaceinAnderland · 14/12/2025 15:08

If we had a completely genderfree environment - nothing ascribed to either sex, just individuals living as they want, presumably there would be no need for anyone to transition because there would be nothing to transition to or from.

I wouldn't put it quite that way. I think that some people would still want the medical treatments, at least. But would they insist on being seen as belonging to the other sex, rather than just another variant of their own sex? Hard to say.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2025 15:21

DeanElderberry · 14/12/2025 15:15

Adults cannot live 'as they want' for many reasons, some of them rooted in physical sex.

Our bodies carry many constraints that we cannot detach ourselves from.

I'd love to have perfect eyesight. My friend with dwarfism would love to be full height and not crippled with arthritis. I've lost too many people to heart disease and cancer. It's up to us to live the best way we can in the bodies we have for a long as we're able.

You are what you are, accept everyone for what they are completely falls down when people try and say they are something they are not!

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 15:41

Seethlaw · 14/12/2025 14:12

Why would it be too much to expect people not to act on every impulse, sex-based or not, that goes through their mind/body? How are we supposed to have any kind of society at all if people are all allowed to do whatever they feel like in the moment, with no regards as to the consequences?

Could we not have a society free of arbitrary gender (dresses & make up for women, toy cars for boys, etc) and yet accept sex-based behaviour as being somewhat inevitable?

Sex-based impulses, yes; sex-based behaviours, no. Moreover, how would you have a gender-free society, if sex-based impulses were supported? "Men are violent" is a gender stereotype, but it would be fully endorsed in a society that let men act on their violent impulses whenever they feel like it.

"Men are violent" is a gender stereotype
But (on average) it is also a biological reality (or to be more precise men are more violent than women).

it would be fully endorsed in a society that let men act on their violent impulses whenever they feel like it.
Such a society is not what I would advocate at all
Society needs to have norms and expectations of "civilised" behaviour (for want of a better word), whilst also recognising the reality that women need physical protection from men.

Thus society needs to recognise sex-based differences (separate prisons etc), but strive to eliminate arbitrary gender-based expectations and prohibitions.
Which brings us back to the original question - of the observable differences we see in society, which are gender based differences and which are are sex-based differences?
I believe the research has not been done, and may be impossible to do.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 15:44

WallaceinAnderland · 14/12/2025 15:08

If we had a completely genderfree environment - nothing ascribed to either sex, just individuals living as they want, presumably there would be no need for anyone to transition because there would be nothing to transition to or from.

Except for the ones who transition for sexual reasons - because sexuality will always remain.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 15:47

ParmaVioletTea · 14/12/2025 14:07

Could we not have a society free of arbitrary gender (dresses & make up for women, toy cars for boys, etc) and yet accept sex-based behaviour as being somewhat inevitable?

Hmmmmm. The problem is, historically, this was precisely how women & girls were oppressed and excluded.

Because women had babies, therefore they were "naturally" maternal. Which morphed into the false idea that they weren't capable of anything else.

Amd so on ...

Agreed.
The way forward comes down to identifying what behaviour is actually sex-based and what is just gender-stereotyping.

DeanElderberry · 14/12/2025 15:51

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 15:44

Except for the ones who transition for sexual reasons - because sexuality will always remain.

What does 'transition for sexual reasons' mean, and why did nobody need to do it before transitioning was invented in the last few decades?

PS I think I know, it's that newly fashionable homophobia, isn't it?

ifyoulikechocolate · 14/12/2025 15:51

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2025 09:16

I'm researching my great grandfather's WW1 battalion at length.

I was reading the citation for one of them for the military medal last night. He wasn't a member of the fighting companies - I doubt he was even carrying a gun at the time. He was a stretcher bearer. He was part of Battalion HQ - and rather than fighting he went up to the front trenches and was tending men under heavy artillery and machine gun fire, refusing to leave them. He received a gun shot wound in the thigh whilst doing this.

He's the second so far I've found with a similar award. The other one was going into no mans land and retrieving men on stretchers under fire.

Women are talked about a fair bit as the ones who tended the wounded. We don't tend to cover much about how men got to hospital first and who were the emergency medics though. All your war movies have your heroes and then their angelic healers. The bit in the middle is glossed over and hurried with very little focus on this aspect of war - yet particularly in modern day combat - this is seen as the most important elements which reduces deaths massively and reduces permanent disability (one of the factors in the current Ukraine - Russian war is that the Russian death toll is much higher in part because of poor medical support and emergency care. The Ukrainians meanwhile have been heavily focused on this).

The other overlooked part of WW1 is how many men were in the army but didn't have front line roles. One of my other great grandfather's was in a battalion known as a Labour Corps. The records for these battalions simply were not kept and there's very scant information about the lives of these men in part because of this and in part because they were often older men or men in lesser health / physical shape meaning they were more likely to be poor/illiterate. And frankly who is interested in the men who move goods and equipment to the front and build and maintain railways etc. These men were not issued guns at all - the British army didn't have enough for every single soldier who enlisted, (even front line troops were using very old unsuitable guns at times, particularly earlier in the war) - instead they were issued with a shovel. But it was not uncommon for them to be within the range of fire - doing things like tending for horses, moving rations etc.

This particular great Grandfather was medically evacuated and awarded a pension after being gassed. Many others died. He never fired a shot. I find his story as interesting as that of my great grandfather who was in the trenches, in part precisely because of our lack of knowledge of what happened to these men that's almost completely lost from history only 100 years on.

Amazingly I think I read that men like this actually made up 2/3rd of the army - the logistics of running the war were utterly enormous.

We do get told about conscious objectors, but actually many men didn't go as far as refusing to serve completely - instead being allocated to medical teams and other non combat roles by choice and this is what they ended up doing, still living in appalling conditions and at considerable risk.

One of my great great grandfathers was too old to fight but he signed up for WW1 service anyway. He was a photographer so his job was training men to take ariel photos from planes which became an absolutely crucial job.

Indeed the efficiency and success of Allied logistics was a factor in breaking the moral of the Germans in 1918. They had been told that they had as much as the Allies for supplies and rations, but on making a breakthrough in spring 1918 found that they'd be lied to which absolutely broke their spirit and resolve. Eventually this offensive was to run out of steam as the Germans had extended their supply lines so much they couldn't go any further and maintain momentum and they didn't have the moral to push further.

When the Allies made their counter attack and eventual breakthrough in the Autumn of 1918, they faced similar logistic challenges. My great grandfather covered more than 20miles fighting in 4 days at one point near the end of the war. They had moved vast quantities of rations to keep up with the pace of the offensive and they had to bring up equipment to do things to enable the reserve units to cross rivers quickly behind the advancing troops as the Germans had blown all the bridges as they retreated.

This wasn't done by women and it wasn't done by men carrying guns and intending to kill.

I think our concept and perception of WW1 - and war generally - is somewhat warped into this idea of heroic young men with guns. It's almost the embodiment of these ideas of toxic masculinity and modern day main character syndrome where you have to have a leading role as a man rather than being a crucial part of the back up team with what is perceived as a 'lesser role', when in reality without all their unseen, uncelebrated and often dangerous work, the front line soldiers wouldn't have been able to fight.

It's the idea of individualism and how it's celebrated today rather than understanding the value of teamwork and community which often comes with self fulfillment in its own right that is really a massive issue within 2025 society. We are all about the influencers and 'being someone' rather than a less glamorous but potentially rewarding job.

(/End of being a female WW1 nerd)

I am glad OP started this thread just so I got to read your post. Fascinating stuff. I will go chat to my WW1 nerd friend about what you have written. Thanks.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 15:53

@GallantKumquat
Sorry I didn't read the long post.

In general her [sontag's] position is that women must accept their sex (of course) but actively eliminate all stereotypes so that only the minimal, essential differences of sex are left and mitigate those so they don't disadvantage women. This contrasts with Butler who tries to salvage all stereo-typed behaviour of both sexes and allow them to be resorted between men and women - and insists that they all have equal value. Sontag by contrast, usually (but not always) sees the stereotypes of women as being inferior and to be eliminated. But in general her goal is levelling of differences.

This what I had understood: 2nd wave feminists tried to dismantle gender-based discrimination, leaving just the reality of sex, but Butler and the "genderists" abandoned that as too difficult so tried to dismantle sex whilst leaving gender intact. The latter of course was a fool's errand and a serious mistake.

WallaceinAnderland · 14/12/2025 15:53

Seethlaw · 14/12/2025 15:18

I wouldn't put it quite that way. I think that some people would still want the medical treatments, at least. But would they insist on being seen as belonging to the other sex, rather than just another variant of their own sex? Hard to say.

There would be nothing to 'belong to'. Yes, they could have surgery to change the appearance of their secondary sex characteristics but so what? No one would even know.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 15:55

DeanElderberry · 14/12/2025 15:51

What does 'transition for sexual reasons' mean, and why did nobody need to do it before transitioning was invented in the last few decades?

PS I think I know, it's that newly fashionable homophobia, isn't it?

No, I am talking about those who cross-dress as a fetish.
They used to be called transvestites if they did it sufficiently often in public.

WallaceinAnderland · 14/12/2025 15:58

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 15:55

No, I am talking about those who cross-dress as a fetish.
They used to be called transvestites if they did it sufficiently often in public.

They are the ones shouting the loudest to be allowed access to women and girls in a state of undress.

Seethlaw · 14/12/2025 15:59

WallaceinAnderland · 14/12/2025 15:53

There would be nothing to 'belong to'. Yes, they could have surgery to change the appearance of their secondary sex characteristics but so what? No one would even know.

Are you arguing that sex itself would disappear in a genderfree society?

DeanElderberry · 14/12/2025 16:02

EuclidianGeometryFan · 14/12/2025 15:55

No, I am talking about those who cross-dress as a fetish.
They used to be called transvestites if they did it sufficiently often in public.

Oh right, like the ones who could get a license in early 20th Germany. They only ever claimed to be Transvestite, not to be women.

Swipe left for the next trending thread