The myth of 'bathroom bans' harming 'cis' women

[ItsCoolForCats]

What can we do to put this nonsense to bed?

Marie Goldman, the Lib Dem MP, has written to Bridget Phillipson about the leaked EHRC code of practice, and has posted this on her Facebook page:

"Imagine being turned away from a bathroom, a hospital, or even a cinema just for “not looking female enough”.

That’s exactly what the leaked EHRC guidance on single-sex services could lead to. Along with over 40 Lib Dem colleagues, I’ve written to the Minister for Women & Equalities to raise serious concerns.

The draft could have staff questioning anyone’s sex based on appearance and refusing access if there’s any doubt. That risks putting trans and non-binary people – and all women and girls – in unsafe, humiliating situations.

It’s confusing, unworkable for businesses, and a backward step for equality. We urgently need new, inclusive, practical guidance that protects everyone’s rights, safety, and dignity".

The comments under her post are pretty wild (with a smattering of common sense). And when you click on the profile pictures of some of the 'women' claiming this will harm 'cis' women and is unenforceable, it is apparent within half a second of looking at their profile pictures that they are male. And of course there are the usual compliant women saying it's "cis het" men that are the issue.

Why can't people see this for what is? Emotional manipulation and blackmail designed to allow men to keep accessing women's single sex spaces. I find it astonishing that intelligent people fall for this.

Name change because I feel embarrassed writing about this. I'm straight, tall, flat-chested and don't usually wear much/any makeup. Now I'm in my late 50s and since going through the menopause and particularly since having my ovaries removed alongside a hysterectomy earlier this year my boobs have practically disappeared ( think ironing board with nipples 😔). Finding bras that give me any kind of shape without looking odd on me has become more difficult. Ageing is also making my face sag so I do look less feminine than b4. I agree that up until quite recently we had an almost 100% trust that males and females self-police to stay out of opposite sex spaces and so no one was eyeing each other up assessing "femaleness" in toilets/ changing rooms etc. Post menopause I was quite enjoying a feeling that I could let myself become more invisible, less bothered about make up/ dressing for others' opinion, the male gaze etc . However over the last 8-12 months or so I have definitely become aware that I'm occasionally being given the side eye by women in female only spaces ( and men waiting outside female changing rooms for their partners while I'm standing in the queue waiting to go in). The feeling of being appraised for my right to be in that space and the apprehension that I might get challenged is extremely uncomfortable for me. I would find it mortifying and as a person who avoids conflict and finds it difficult to be self-assertive it stresses me out. I've never been a confident person, I have an element of social anxiety and self consciousness and now it's becoming worse. I consider myself a GC feminist but I'm feeling a self-imposed pressure to present myself as more stereotypically feminine again - eg wearing more makeup, avoiding gender neutral clothes, avoiding heels that would add to my height ( and it pisses me off that I'm even thinking this way). I want to add that I haven't yet been challenged by anyone and I hope that just by saying "it's ok I'm in the right place" that fellow women will relax and realise I'm female but I guess some people doing the challenging, including men outside female spaces cld potentially be quite intimidating.
I want single sex spaces to remain exactly that and I accept that women like me might pay a (smallish) price of getting caught up in the "female appearance" assessments to come. Not looking for sympathy but just wanted to put my perspective and ask people to challenge "gently" if you feel the need to challenge someone whose sex you're not 100% sure of. If you've got this far in my rambling post - thanks for reading :-)

Arguing against this lying nonsense is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.
In order for TRAs and their allies to understand that it's nonsense, they'd have to have working brains. I know that's really rude, but I just get so sick of the lack of logic.
So I guess all we can do is just keep repeating:
Trans people are not banned from anywhere. It's just that males can't be given female sex-based rights without females losing any hope of being able to fairly and equally access society. Males who dont want to use male spaces can use their vast privilege and entitlement to get a separate set of spaces. They cant have female spaces.
And yet again, no it's not about 'trans rights'. Trans people have exactly the same rights as other people and the extra EA rights under gender reassignment.

A woman. Not multiple. But, yes, I was followed and shouted, after I told her that I was a woman.

Edit to say that I am gender critical. I am not a trans activist.

If males, of any identity, had just kept out of our single sex spaces then none of this would be happening.

The answer still is not just for women to throw up their hands and say 'men come on in'.

And yes, if you're blaming women for alleged impacts on (selected and agenda-useful) women, here on this forum, impacts which have arisen solely from men invading women's single sex spaces, you are doing it to try and coerce women into being used by men.

I was mistakenly called 'Mr' when checking in at an airport, I wasn't surprised as I knew I was looking reasonably butch. I just laughed and said "I'm a woman" which they instantly realised when they heard my voice. It was easily resolved, nobody was offended, it wasn't an issue.

I’d imagine any challenges are based on the fact that many are really frustrated that some obvious males have been allowed to use female facilities. I’m sure it can feel horrible to be challenged, but the annoyance should be with the organisations that allowed this to happen in the first place.

The letter has been signed by a number of MP’s.

The post on Facebook from Marie Goldman has attracted a great deal of interest. Close to 800 comments now. Other posts made by her team rarely attract much interest at all.Quite a mixed bag of opinions on this.

If gender-non-conforming women are being made to feel uncomfortable on toilets, that is yet another way in which this evil ridiculous gendee ideology has damaged women.
If women could trust that misogynist males would keep out of women's spaces, and that if they did invade, the woman would be backed up in a complaint rather than being treated as a bigot, this kind of questioning wouldnt happen.
Women are on high alert - and yes, probably higher alert than necessary - because of TRAs.

I've posted this before but my trans man friend thinks men who identify as women should be allowed in the ladies because then they won't get challenged for looking like a man although they actually want people to think they are a man.

My friend wants to use the ladies facilities because they feel the men's are too dangerous for them but are happy for other women to have to share with men.

Men would notice they were a woman because they look like a woman despite the short hair and masculine clothes.

I hope this post makes sense but the twisted logic makes my head want to explode!

In toilets 🤣 Hopefully not on toilets 😂

The way to handle this is to check that they are coming from the starting point that only females are entitled to use female only provision. This needs to be established before discussing how to make sure all females feel comfortable using the provision - regardless of their appearance.

If they are using it to try and gain support for their objection to female only provision excluding males with trans identities, it’s a red herring and should be called out as such.

Incredible how society managed for the last century onwards with single sex spaces with minimal problems. Yet since a group of dubious men started demanding access to women undressed / in a vulnerable state, suddenly certain woman are unsafe?

Suppose that's what happens when our leaders start spouting open lies - "TWAW, women can have a penis, sex change is great for kids" etc. Society's basic trust and respect for facts, the law and our leaders are diminished and people turn on each other.

Very sad to see.

If trans activists need people to yell at women with short hair in the toilets to "prove a point", then trans activists will yell at women with short hair in the toilets.

It's utterly irrelevant. They will abuse and harrass regardless of what 'sex' means in the equality act. We've seen it for years. Women are collateral damage in the eternal fight to make all spaces mixed-sex.

This canard again. It happens. As soon as the interlocutor hears my voice, she realises her error. The end.

A: "I think this is the ladies?"
Me: "I should hope so, because we've both made a mistake if it isn't."
A:😳

Whenever I see this being argued, it's always the latter.

And if these people are so concerned about women being challenged in women's spaces, perhaps they should join the dots and reflect on the circumstances that have lead to this happening.

BTW the people who are obsessed with the notion that women are 'people who look feminine' are not the GC feminists.

It's the people who think their sex 'aligns' with something else about them - the clothes they wear or their personality or their interests.

GCs: "female doesn't mean feminine - don't conflate them"
TRAs: "they're saying only feminine people can use female toilets!!"

Surely she's not suggesting men would lie to enter women's spaces? I thought that we were meant to believe that men in dresses were entirely trustworthy?

I think the media have had a big part in this. Naomi Cunningham was asked about it in her Scotcast interview. And it's been repeated by a Woman's Hour presenter. They repeat the argument, but don't scrutinise where these claims are coming from or what the underlying motivations might be. And it probably does add to women feeling mistrustful.

The Times, who are normally pretty good, had an awful headline about the leaked guidance, which really stoked the flames, "Trans people could be banned from single-sex spaces based on how they look". The headline was designed to provoke outrage.

And men who want to continue to access women's spaces have seized on this argument, with their faux concern for 'cis' women and lesbians,

Oh for heaven sake. What happened before all this?

Men weren't allowed in toilets in my parents and grandparents day, they would've been horrified at the very idea.

So if a woman who they genuinely thought was a man went in they would have confronted her. In which case it's not new.

Of course it's been exacerbated by trans ideology because now women are suspicious that men are trying to come into their toilets in stealth mode. Which they are.

Blame this on the right people. It's nothing to do with women protecting their spaces. And everything to do with men trying to breach them.

But seriously, butch women do not look like men. And it doesn't matter how feminine a woman looks. It's not about being feminine, it's about being female.

It's not about flat chests, long hair and high heels. There are six and a half thousand genetic differences between men and women, none of which involve make up.

The solution is to let it ride out until women are more confident that men aren't trying to sneak into their toilets.

Get them chucked out by security and prosecuted if they continue.

Exactly how it used to be.

This

🙄

Quite.

Also, all of what Datun says.

Exactly. Put the blame squarely where it is.

Fucking Keir Starmer saying 99% of women don't have a penis???

Women are taking back their spaces. And the more men who get publicly and loudly thrown out of them, the more secure we will feel, and less jumpy we will become.

I'm never sure what the takeout is supposed to be here.

Because women may get challenged in the toilets, we should roll over and give men everything they want and to hell with women's rights? Is that it?