The Unwelcome Truth about Rape

[TheywontletmehavethenameIwant]

I thought I'd post a link to this interesting article, it's likely to be received with hostility by those who bother to read it.

But I think it makes important points and might call for a complete rethink on how we as a society think of 'rape', especially in these day of increased VAWG. We can't protect against it if we can't identify it.

The Scientists Persecuted for Their Rape Research

"In their work, Thornhill and Palmer excuse nothing and absolve no one. They simply remind people that sexual violence has something to do with biology and that ignoring that fact means—at best—misunderstanding the nature of rape and, at worst, harming victims. In the face of such heresy, the outrage machine went into overdrive. There were defamatory articles, bad-faith readings, insults, and even threats from which the researchers needed police protection. At the end of it all, both their lives had been irreparably damaged."

The Russians raped Ukrainian women as a reproductive denial-of-service attack. The raping soldiers told their victims that this was why they were raping them.

This doesn't preclude Russians also raping men and boys.

Yes, I would definitely say their positions reflected their male perspective on the subject. I’m not sure there was much actual research data, it was theoretical.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

Would you say that violence isn't rooted in biology? And yet we also see that violence varies a lot across cultures.

Humans are pretty adaptable, including to differernt social structures, and varied environmental conditions.

Why do some cultures produce a lot of violence, is the question I'd want to ask based on your observation here. Violence and rape are clearly connected, but that doesn't mean that rape is just a form of violence. There is always the question, what is violence for?

Bonobos, and chimps to come extent too, have sex all the time, so it's not a surprise there isn't a lot of rape.

Have you not noticed the massive child abuse image (loathe to call it CP) problem we have? And there is a huge amount of 'granny porn' online.

Theres millions of animal abuse porn fgs. Men find almost anything 'attractive/arousing'

I’m a biologist so I definitely come from the viewpoint that I find it easier to view us humans as the animals we are. I agree with @ApplebyArrows post.

What I find fascinating is how hyaenas are portrayed in Disney and newspaper articles etc. Their portrayal as sinister, deceitful creatures is nothing like the reality. They’re a peaceful, female dominated mammal, the females are physically strong and the anatomy of the female genitalia means it’s impossible for them to have non-consensual sex. I believe (not 100% sure) that makes them the only mammal that can’t be raped. Their genitalia is often referred to as bizarre and masculine-like.

Rule the women, rule the world! I’m not anti-religion (kids even go to a c of e school) but, IMO, the bible is a classic example of men writing a book that “coincidentally” aids dominating women within which women are largely portrayed as virgins, prostitutes or deceitful liars.

TempestTost Yes, people do deny that it's sexual act. It seems very common in some feminist circles, almost taken as a kind of first principle.

I've been a feminist for a very long time, but I have never heard anyone saying that rape is not a sexual act as well as an expression of power and dominance.
Wrong feminist circles, perhaps. Or the right ones!

Does it depend on their definition of 'sex'? Is their argument that men think they are 'having sex with' an unwilling women, because the act is sexual, whereas the unwillingness means that it is not a shared sexual act and therefore should be called something other than 'sex'?

It seems like unnecessary complication, but as I've never come across this 'first principle', I've never seen it properly explained.

As far as I'm aware, the most common understanding of rape is that it is a sexual act with a number of possible motivations, but always with the common denominator of the exercise of power by the rapist to deny the victim the right to say no.

There are TRAs who argue that a trans identifying male cannot rape a woman because transwomen are more marginalised and powerless in society than women - that's taking the 'its all about power not sex' to the limit, and is equally unconvincing.

I'm not sure what claim you're making with "rooted in biology". T&P claim that rape is an evolutionary adaptation. That would mean we would expect to see it across human cultures with little variation, & in our closest non-human relatives.

If by "rooted in biology" you mean something more like "sexual desire is biological, and men who rape experience a sexual desire to do so" or "male/female physical size & strength differences are biological, and make it easier for men to rape women & girls" I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

I think we can agree it's multifactorial - nature and nurture and culture. But it's not very useful just saying 'any man can rape' and 'fertile females are the most likely victims', even though it's true.

For policing, important to know men are variable, and a subset are highly dangerous and need detecting and containing.

For our own self-preservation, important not to trust any man initially, to look out for DV red flags, and have a means of escape.

YY.

I think people are referring to the idea that there is always power involved in rape, which T&P and other evo psych fans see as an unhelpful feminist dogma.

I do think a lot of the time that people are talking past each other though.

The article was oddly written, the writing style was all over the place.

I would have thought it to be common sense that the reasons for rape are multiple. However, all rape is sexual because that is the nature of it. It's not sensual, which is what some people might want to think "sex" is, but rape is a sexual act. It's multiple other things too, and not necessarily all of them all of the time.

I don't think it's particularly helpful for anyone, least of all victims, to almost reason away rape by saying the man was biologically compelled. It reads almost like some men have some sort of biological right or entitlement to sex, lest they take matters into their own hands. There needs to be some widespread social and cultural changes. Why are young men gravitating to the likes of Andrew Tate, why is incel culture increasing, and what could/should be done about it.

It's a particularly prickly subject, not just because it's objectively horrible, but because rape itself can only exist because of the sexual dimorphism of humans. So it's an example of how the oppression of women can always ultimately be traced back to physiology, and therefore much disliked by transgenderists, MRAs, and intersectional 'feminists' alike. They can write twenty page essays about gender as a social construct if they like, but it's bullshit, and they know it.

Translated from the French. I did start to read the French to see if the translation was poor, but could only see the beginning.

That’s an excellent point.

I am not sure what the issue is here.

Some contemporary men have written an article, that we are supposed to say is serious research, that in fact just goes back the very long held belief, probably into my live time, that men just cant help themselves.

But as one well known revolutionary feminist said, this explanation is just male piffle. If men cant help themselves then acts of rape would be happening in queues at check outs, etc..

Rape takes would could be a sexual encounter, and uses it as an act of aggression and conquest.

That is why rape as a weapon of war is so common.

Again it is within living memory that rape in marriage was thought not to be possible (because of course in marrying a man a woman loses her right not to do as he wants).

I agree men may have occassions of sexual frustration, but it is only because of male dominance that they can inflict that frustration on someone else, usually a woman. And sadly children.

Partly also because they cant believe women would not want to be sexual with them, not for one moment thinking they are the problem, but it must be women's fault. Therefore women can be coerced.

How many sexually frustrated women pounce on unsuspecting men in public places, or indeed in the home.

Only men could have come up with this reverse order, men are saints, concept. And women are being meanies by complaining about it.

If man really are these untrainable animals, then like dangerous dogs they should be locked up, and not allowed out in public.

I dont think I have ever heard such reactionary nonsense,

Well not in fact since way back in my childhood my mother started to impress upon me never be alone with a man in a room.

And whilst no feminist, I certainly dont think she thought it was because men had uncontrolable urges but that men had the balance of power.

Next thing you know there will be an appeal case in the US saying it was unfair to imprison Epstein as he just couldn't help himself, and was giving much needed therapy to his male buddies who needed a bit of therapy by having young girls made available to them. And Maxwell was just being helpful and supportive in working with him to enable this use of immature females.

Or maybe the research was paid for by the Taliban.

What utter totally male-focused bollocks.

Among humans only the female has any clue when she's fertile, a window that lasts for hours, not days. The clue is desire and its focus is going to be someone she wants, not someone she's terrified of. So, just based on the biology of the situation, pregnancy is far likelier when she decides on the timing.

The fact that pregnancy is possible after rape does not mean it's a common result. Rapes result in pregnancy a very low percentage of the time simply because ovulation isn't happening. Low as in 1%-2%. Normal sex, esp female-initiated, that frequency is closer to 30%. In terms of getting DNA into future generations, that 30% will swamp the 2%.

In biologist-speak, the evolutionary selective pressure makes rape fail as a useful reproductive strategy.

In human-speak, it's not sex, even if it uses sexual organs, any more than forcefeeding is simply a different kind of meal.

Where rape is hugely successful is in establishing terror, humiliation, and slaves. It's a form of torture that uses sex. Except in the mind of someone who has his head entirely up his own ass, that doesn't make it sex.

Catherine Deneve signed the letter against the me too movement about the freedom to make a sexual pass played iconic roles one of which is a woman who becomes a sexworker tied to a tree where she would be fetishised and whipped . I would give weight to the constant playing out in our media of women being treated a certain sexually contrived way be it to sell electronics, newpapers and so on that this backs up the animalistic desires where women are shown as vulnerable and denigrated and that it is this lens of focus that causes issue not how women are going about their everyday business.
I can give the example of being in India when basic instinct 2 was on release in the cinema now bear in mind women are on the beach covered from head to toe if u showed so much as an ankle it would cause a stir. I was in an a glassware antiques shop completely covered up respectfully to fit my environment a guy comes over and shows me some glassware holding it up to the light in that glassware were photographic images of vaginas . He made the assumption that because I was western I would appreciate him showing me this. Strangely I didn’t want to see this magnified at the bottom of a glass.

I think the projected sexualisation of denigrating women plants ideas in mens head that they have permission to play out their fantasy that they can indeed help themselves I feel society has been constructed to enable men to behave like this even in the areas of law it so hard to get a conviction and the sentences are so pathetic its hardly a deterrent. If it wasn’t so tragic it would be laughable that men being able to help themselves to animalistic desires is constantly played out . I used to walk past Asian newspaper shops with red top newspapers showing front page images of young women being upskirted those papers are now obsessed with grooming gangs scandals. I used to wonder what they thought of this pavement display I used to walk past as a young woman because it certainly made me feel uncomfortable yet it was socially acceptable to have this display outside the shop

Even plays out on kids clothes. Predator animal on the “boy” tops and prey animals on the “girl” tops as a general rule.

That is interesting about children’s clothing your right

And isn't it interesting that the conquered men and boys aren't immediately castrated so they cannot reproduce and raise armies to challenge the victors again.

It's the females that are abused and treated inhumanely.

a window that lasts for hours, not days.

Wrong, because sperm can live for a week in her body.

Also wrong about rape-caused pregnancies being rarer than consensually-cause pregnancies:

• "Our analysis suggests that per-incident rape-pregnancy rates exceed per-incident consensual pregnancy rates by a sizable margin, even before adjusting for the use of relevant forms of birth control."
• "Our figures show that, even before adjusting for birth control usage, per-incident rape-pregnancy rates (6.42%) are notably higher than per-incident consensual pregnancy rates (3.1%)."

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12110-003-1014-0

And sperm create the eventual human all on their own, I guess.

The window depends on both sperm and egg being at the right stage and in the right place.

The link provided leads only to an abstract of a rarely cited paper from 2003. This bit seems very odd" "Using data on birth control usage from the Statistical Abstract of the United States, we then form an estimate of rapepregnancy rates adjusted for the substantial number of women in our sample who would likely have been protected by oral contraception or an IUD. Our analysis suggests that per-incident rape-pregnancy rates exceed per-incident consensual pregnancy rates by a sizable margin, even before adjusting for the use of relevant forms of birth control."

The methodology I've seen estimates pregnancy rates from hospital records of women who seek medical help after rape and the subset who later need abortions. Those numbers won't be a perfect reflection of frequency, obviously, but closer than guessing about birth control status.

I was reading about another excuse for rape of women and girls who were condemned in Iran - to deny them entry to paradise in the afterlife. The Islamists believed that virgins would go to paradise so raped women and girls who had been sentenced to death to prevent this.

The window depends on both sperm and egg being at the right stage and in the right place.

And the rape can be at any time in the week before ovulation for this to be the case. That's not a short window, at all.

I got the whole paper as a PDF from there. Guessing that my employer subscribes to Human Nature...