19th November is International Men's Day

[Lalgarh]

https://www.indy100.com/news/when-is-international-mens-day-2674308198

Mention some international men HERE to celebrate 🥂 🎊

It's interesting how a lot of the comments here have been mirrored by men who moan about International Women's Day. "Why are you posting here?", "it's men's fault etc" exactly the same gets posted by men in the internet about the other day.

International Men's Day actually helps justify International Women's Day and stops the constant "why do women get a day" message etc.

The "toxic masculinity" argument is what has helped fuel transmaxxing and the trans movement. You will hear a lot of boys say "I don't want to be part of the male group because of toxic masculinity etc".

I actually do think people like Andrew Tate are the result of the backlash against terms like "toxic masculinity".

You have fallen into the trap of basically just arguing "masculinity = toxic" and it just draws resentment. I very rarely (if ever) hear about "positive masculinity" and hearing about people promoting a positive image for men. Boys need role models or a decent ideal to accede to. And yes it needs to come from men, but in the current climate only men who are open about "toxic masculinity" get any airtime.

I lsimply wanted to understand why the OP had chosen to post on this board in particular - now he’s explained that’s fine by me. 🤷‍♀️

the only posts i saw of that type were posted ironically by people.

The vile backlash to women on Women's day is a thing to behold. And nothing at all of the type any men who moved their backsides to tweet about IMD receive. (not that i think anyone should get vile abuse)

I ignore it now for the most part. They can whine all they like about us choosing the bear, or a cat-lady life or watever. I simply cannot care and leave them to their (self imposed/created) misery.

As said on another thread, why is feminism, as a social and political movement for the advancement of the rights and issues for and about women, expected to take every other group under it's wing? Why are women expected to organise stuff for men for International Men's Day as well as our own stuff for our own (now co-opted) day?

I'm very happy to support men in their campaigning and have in fact signed petitions to support funding for men's sheds and for support for male domestic violence survivors etc etc but why are we seen as everyone's handy organiser, putting our own concerns to one side to do the work for others?

It's just yet another aspect of women's work.

I don't think Marie's fallen into any "trap" by referencing toxic masculinity in this way. She's just presented it as the risk, and potential temptation, it clearly is. Your post seems to risk equating mentioning it in this way with being part of the problem, with an assumption that such a mention consolidates the association between males and toxicity in the proportionate absence of alternative messages to balance it out: "I don't want to be part of the male group" and "boys need role models".

This idea that boys aren't presented with a sufficiently wide-ranging choice of ways to be male really, really frustrates me. Yes, there are major issues with representation - hence the need for the white ribboners (now thinking of Terry Pratchett!) But anyone who perceives representation as limited should first compare it to women's predicament. While Bechdel shows that we've hardly yet escaped maiden/mother/hag, and wider stats indicate our virtual disappearance age 40 onwards, we see positive examples of meaningful male agency across the age range EVERYWHERE: heroes, thinkers, workers, managers, politicians, sportsmen, everymen, young men, old men, beautiful men, normal-looking and even ugly (not that I like to use that word - feels judgy, ugh) men.

To hear that "In the current climate only men who are open about 'toxic masculinity' get any airtime" feels absurd and actually not a little upsetting to any woman over 40 who's watched live television and looked for herself - for a full, rounded, autonomous female living an imperfect and mundane middle age.

The focus should be on men's health. To reduce male suicides, which affect women and children left behind more than anyone.

IDGAF.

You have fallen into the trap of basically just arguing "masculinity = toxic" and it just draws resentment.

What a strange way to interpret what I said, CapacityBrown!

But on the other hand, it's a useful illustration of the bizarre but not uncommon idea that trying to protect boys from something toxic, i.e. damaging, is bad for them.

I have absolutely no idea how you interpreted what I wrote as 'basically just arguing "masculinity = toxic"' . I did nothing of the sort, and even provided a link to an example of a men's group that promotes very positive and affirmative masculinity.

Thank you Catiette for reading my post and responding to what I actually wrote.

I actually think knee-jerk responses to even the mention of "toxic masculinity" illustrate the problem quite well. "What about the men?" "Why do we have such and such for women but not men?" "Not all men!" There's a subtext of being undervalued and wronged which can lead to the resentment that drives boys and young men towards toxic masculinity. I wish we could change the narrative.

If only "What about the men?" and "Why do we have such and such for women but not men?" could become, "Well, women have a greater need (ref. male sexual violence), but some men do too, so 1) what can we do to model better behaviour to male aggressors and 2) address male victims' needs?"

And if "Not all men!" could become, "Yup, male violence can be an issue, can't it, but what me and my mates do to challenge those pathetic specimens who ARE the problem is..."

And "Toxic masculinity! Poor boys hearing that all the time, no wonder they're angry!" could become "Yes, isn't it great that we're doing (whatever) so the next generation isn't labelled this way..."

And each of the above responses, by definition, leads to better role models, in the measured tone, the associated actions, and the consequent influence on other boys and men, and the discourse itself.

Nothing wrong with IMD, but I do wonder if that's really the kind of thing men actually like? I am not sure having special awareness days is particularly likely to attract men to think about or do things.

I remember a few years ago a group here was trying to connect with black men, They had a couple false starts before they started going out to basketball games which seemed to have some success.