Do you think the term "Gender Critical" is why some people won't engage?

[Brefugee]

What i mean is, "gender critical" must put the backs up of people who are on the fence or are already some level of TRA? Because it sounds "critical" and that has negative connotations.

Do you think that if we'd adopted the term "sex realist" it might have worked a bit more in our favour? Especially with people who don't spend any time at all in this "discussion"?

I was thinking about it while perusing this article

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/media/article/bbc-trans-ideology-childrens-programmes-chq292hfz

http://archive.today/iDMMq
(archive link)

Maybe the minions at the BBC would feel more able to engage in a proper discussion about all this if they didn't hear "gender critical" but "sex realist"?

I'm not sure where you the the idea that this grassroots women's movement emanated from the right? You shouldn't believe everything social media tells you. or let everything be framed in such a way. It tends to remove integrity and the ability to think critically about any given issue yourself.

Nobody is asking you 'join' any movement. A grassroots movement tends to arise spontaneously and people then find their way towards others who feel the same way. That is certainly how it happened with me. I first became involved in 2017/18......and at the time thought i was alone in being disturbed by what i discovered had been going on, during all of those years I had become politically disengaged and focused on family matters. I reached out. And here I am - firstly via a local resisters group. a group of women from all walks of life and occupation - who met up at each others homes - to discuss and to organise.

Most of us had been at one time or other more or less politically engaged and mostly tended to associate with the Left and typical leftists causes.

The ‘association’ of gender critical feminism with ‘the right’ is very clearly down to the deliberate misinformation of transactivists.

And maybe also down to the fact that most overtly 'left wing' outlets refused to engage with the issue ( the Guardian, BBC etc) and so it was writers and journalists who had been blacklisted by these organisations who found that it was only media such as The Times, Unherd, The Telgraph that gave them a voice.

Anything the Left doesn't/didn't approve of was/is presented as being 'far right'.

This is the isssue that caused many of us to totally revise our political certainties and loyalties - usually resulting in becoming politically homeless. Personally, I have found this liberating.

Well yes, the ‘capturing’ of the BBC and Guardian is a significant part of it. But also SM - Reddit, Twitter before it became X. The transactivists tried damned hard to stifle women’s voices on Mumsnet - which (at least when this all started) was generally ‘liberal left’ if anything.

Ignoring the patronising start (I am on no SM except MN and perfectly capable of critical thinking thank you!) I was speaking in general terms in response the the OPs question about people 'engaging' with the GC movement.
I'm aware no one has invited me to join a movement. I used the term to differentiate between people who believe you can't change sex (almost everyone) and people who are actively engaged in the discussion and campaigns to halt GI and was putting forward one possibility (amongst several) as to why there are fewer people in the latter group than we might expect.
GC is associated with right wing politics. This has come about because the politicians supportive of it are of the right, while left wing parties (Communist excepted) have been supportive of GI.
This is what the public see, not grass roots groups of left wing feminists. I'm aware they exist because I come on here (SM!) and it's on here that I've been educated and had my own views crystallised.
It is also on here that I've been (irrelevantly) challenged on my left wing views in general, diverting attention from the issue we have in common.
So while I agree that GC beliefs are found at every stage of the political spectrum, the strongest association is with the right.

Its down to the left embracing GI.

I think you misunderstand me, or maybe I wasn't very clear.

Everything you highlighted is worth highlighting, and I think if the gender critical movement focused its energies on the injustices you mention, more people would engage.

But because the noisiest, less thoughtful, elements of the movement are breathlessly sharing clickbait from the Telegraph on vegan tampons in men's loos, individual DL chestfeeding leaflets from one service provider within one NHS trust, and misleadingly framed images of toilet signage to make it look like there's less single sex provision for women, the whole movement gets tarnished with a sense of... ridiculous hyperbole.

Because many people are bright enough to know that one toilet in one National Trust property does not a policy make, nor does a single DL leaflet in the vast sea of NHS leaflets mean women are being eradicated from public life... Most people don't give a shit if there are tampons in men's loos, or even guidance on chestfeeding, because they can see that, holistically, 99.99% of men's loos don't have tampons in, and 99.99% of breastfeeding literature mentions women and breasts.

Gender critical is starting to become synonymous with reactionary hyperbole. I would have described myself as gender critical ten years ago - now I wouldn't, because it's all got very... hyperbolic, is the only word I can use. Can't see the wood for the trees. Indiscriminately angry about and reacting to everything, rather than focused anger on big issues. I only say this in response to the question, 'Is it the phrase gender critical that makes people unwilling to engage?'. No, because 'Sex affirming' would still come with the same hyperbolic, seemingly actively seeking to be offended, drama.

The reason, i suspect, that many assume it to be a right wing movement is down to the fact that no Left wing media outlets were prepared to discuss or even engage with the conflict of rights in inherent in Trans Ideology. The Guardian, for example, blacklisted and briefed against its own journalists who then had to go wherever they were offered a platform.I don't think you could ever call women such as Julie Bindel, Sonia Sodha, Hadley Freeman, Suzanne Moore etc 'right wing'.

For those of us who have been censored by 'the Left'; by the Labour party; by their trade union; even here on MN; and for those who have lost jobs; been disciplined; viisted by the police and so on.... it is is inevitable that you start to ask some pretty fundamental questions of the ideology of those responsible for all of this censure.Many of us have come to seriously question our political affiliations and questioned all of our previous assumptions. We've seen people who identify as' Left wing' behave in the most authoritarian and quite frankly bigoted ways.

Personally, i find it greatly liberating to be no longer so compliant. Free to ask questions, not to assume anything. and also to start thinking beyond the parameters of an artificial Left/Right construct.

No, it isn't.

Gender critical feminism is aligned with the right because right-leaning politicians, news outlets and social media provocateurs leap on anything they perceive as 'woke', with trans issues topping the list of trigger issues to get clicks and shares.

I am left leaning. I rarely if ever see any content from transactivists, in any of my news feeds or social media feeds.

I see shit from GBeebies, The Telegraph, the Daily Heil, Glinner and Lawrence Fox all the fucking time.

Gender critical feminists haven't aligned themselves with the right.

The right has, however, firmly aligned itself with you.

And people like me find it hard to openly align myself with a movement that is amplified hatefully.

I don't mean that gender critical feminists are hateful. Let me very clear on that.

But the voices amplifying the messages, are.

I don't think the general public think of all issues as right or left. Im not convinced that 'normies' would see gender ideology as left wing and GC as right wing. More another issue where the political class lost their minds or that its a medical issue.

Most of the genderists rationale dont fit either left or right politics - they are redefining man and woman to be self determined and the people who choose to swap are a marginalised group. How it that Conservative when its such an extreme concept and relies on the idea of being an oppressed minority to get what they want? How is it left wing for an oppressed group to be self declared? Eddie izzard has to recognise his privilege, puts on some lipstick and now Susie is marginalised?

And why do you think that right wing commentators get so much material from it? Well, it’s probably something to do with the fact that gender identity ideology, along with trans rights activism is in large part completely absurd, and the left, in their ridiculous, craven fawning over the misogynistic, sexist beliefs of a group of entitled men and confused middle class teenagers have handed this to the right on a silver platter? See Trump etc.

It isnt tampax in one mens toilet, its gender ideology being taught in schools and nurses having to change with a man because he has declared that he is a women.

Yes, highlights this year have included an NHS doctor saying that he is biologically female and that biological sex is a “nebulous dog whistle”. But sure, it’s all the right’s fault.

I think a lot of people frankly don't believe gender ideology is being taught in schools, or, at least, not to any great extent. And I don't think you have to be a massive leftist to think, well, this is the Daily Mail making a fuss, and they have an axe to grind, of course. If 'most' people believed that, it would be a much bigger story.

I don't find it at all liberating when the only hope I have of not ending up with a Reform MP is to vote for a candidate who thinks men can be women. I feel trapped.

I know. But when you get as angry about the former as the latter - or rather, when unhelpful voices leverage your cause to manufacture outrage for clicks or political division - then it's hard for people to engage with.

I am contributing in the spirit of trying to be helpful, but the reality is there's nothing gender critical feminists can do about the fact that the cause has been perverted in certain quarters to suit a political agenda.

However if you really want to know why people find it hard to engage, it's that.

You'll struggle to find many people that disagree with gender ideology being taught as fact, or nurses losing single sex changing provision.

But those aren't the stories being served to them by their algorithms.

It's endless inflated hate.

Because you are 'in the bubble' as it were, I'm sure your newsfeeds are full of stuff that's worthy of anyone's time and attention.

I need you to know that ours... are not.

I don't get served GI stuff either. I'm not in a trans bubble. I'm in a bubble of news outlets, politicians and media provocateurs trying to make me get angry about stuff that I'm not inclined to engage with. Culture war bullshit.

I really need you to understand that the issues you see/read about/engage with, are not the universal experience of everyone.

You are seeing meaningful content because you have engaged with the issue meaningully.

Anyone outside of the gender critical movement is drip-fed utter shite by right-leaning voices.

Those of us with the ability to think critically reject it because we can see they are almost always making mountains out of molehills for clicks. They're not amplifying stories that are detailed, that involved the ins and outs of tribunals and curriculum.

They don't capture attention on social feeds.

They're amplifying small, specific things framed as either 'this is the new norm now' or 'this will be new norm if you don't get angry about it'.

Outside of this board, I haven't seen any intelligent discourse on issues that really matter. The articles and opinions I am served from voices I don't follow, are tripe. Which means I don't seek out voices to follow, because it's not an issue I want to engage with. It's all angry.

I would very much argue that it's the right's fault that gender critical feminism is hard to engage with now.

Here's the thing though.

Anyone at this point (particularly in Scotland) who claims to not know about the issues about the issues with gender ideology is either a liar or has deliberately closed their eyes when going about their daily business.

These were the headlines on every newsstand in Scotland the day after the Supreme Court judgement. Even those who don't read paper newspapers, read news online or listen to the rsdio would see these images as they walked into their local Tesco. Same with the pink leggings image.

It's gone way beyond social media. And now, it's gotten to the point where those who declare they are left leaning are seemingly happy to state that to object against women being incarcerated with men is a right wing attribute. That they (left leaners) support violent male sex offenders being placed in the female prison estate because to say otherwise is 'right wing'.

I would very much argue that it's the right's fault that gender critical feminism is hard to engage with now.

Not the BBCs for reporting about women rapists?

And more

I think the media picture in England is very different, though. I'd take your point about it being a big story in Scotland, @Waitwhat23 .

It's like you don't want people to engage.

GC: Why do people find it hard to connect with our issues?
(get replies around the movement being co-opted by the right)
GC: YOU'RE WRONG
(point out that not everyone sees the same content they do)
GC: YOU'RE WRONG
(admits to being left-leaning)
GC: YOU'RE WRONG

Fine. It's the name you've given yourselves that's the problem. Crack on.

GC: Why do people find it hard to connect with our issues?

What are you talking about?
People don't find it hard to connect with "our issues", in my experience. And I'm talking about people across the board, all social classes including - gasp! - the working class, all ages, many regions and backgrounds.

Anyone outside of the gender critical movement is drip-fed utter shite by right-leaning voices.

That's as may be. But you seem to be implying that a lot of people are too thick to think critically about it. I disagree.

point out that not everyone sees the same content they do

They certainly do in Scotland. And those newspapers are across the political spectrum.

'There are none so blind as those who will not see'