Do you think the term "Gender Critical" is why some people won't engage?

[Brefugee]

What i mean is, "gender critical" must put the backs up of people who are on the fence or are already some level of TRA? Because it sounds "critical" and that has negative connotations.

Do you think that if we'd adopted the term "sex realist" it might have worked a bit more in our favour? Especially with people who don't spend any time at all in this "discussion"?

I was thinking about it while perusing this article

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/media/article/bbc-trans-ideology-childrens-programmes-chq292hfz

http://archive.today/iDMMq
(archive link)

Maybe the minions at the BBC would feel more able to engage in a proper discussion about all this if they didn't hear "gender critical" but "sex realist"?

No.

I’m pretty sure you’re factually wrong on this issue, NamelessNelly.
The trade unions have generally been massively disappointing and unsupportive in some of the recent issues around women’s rights but they were very much instrumental in pushing for the Equal Pay act and then ensuring that women in jobs which were different but of equal value to the men’s were equally paid.

The majority of people that voted, voted to Leave.

That doesn't mean that Leaving represented the majority view of everyone in the UK, because only about three quarters of voting aged people, voted. I'm not saying this in an attempt to delegitimise the result - it was merely in response to an assertion that because Reform are set to do well in the next election, it must mean most people are right-aligned and therefore right-alignment isn't a barrier to engagement with GC causes.

That's not an accurate interpretation of voter intention/results.

I didn't say that other women shouldn't object or feel differently.

I said that, unless your views are aligned with the most hardcore, it's not a particularly welcoming movement.

I stated my views, and while they are not as ideologically pure as you and many other members would like them to be, they are NOT TI either.

The original question asked, why do people not already immersed in the debate, not immerse themselves in the debate? Is it the name?

No. It's because when you encounter what is effectively a floating voter, you're hostile.

And yes, I am hostile too - because I have taken part in these conversations in the past, and you guys, with respect, are relentless in your pursuit of ideological purity, when most people are cheerfully inconsistent. Which isn't an indication of lack of intellectual rigour. It's human nature. Just as very few people are entirely aligned with eg the policies of the political party they vote for. There are things you agree with, and things you disagree with. There doesn't seem to be much willingness to accept that within the GC community, as per the multiple replies I've had to my post outlining my position.

And it's fine if some people get off on debate. But don't you get bored of having the same debate with people like me? Wouldn't it just be... easier... to accept that some people will be semi-allies, but we can usefully help amplify some of your messages, if we are made to feel more welcome?

Because right now, with a few exceptions on Mumsnet, I stay well out of it.

Those who didnt vote obviously were happy for a leave result. Otherwise they would have voted to do their best to stop it happening.

I didnt say that most people are reform voters, i said that a significant number of people are open to 'reform' policies, therefore wouldnt be put off by the idea that GC is perceived (by some) as right wing.

A few people are in a bubble where they can only contemplate voting for one party, or for one set of political ideals. Lots of people - probably the majority, vote for different parties at different times. They are open to a wide range of views and policies.

The idea that labeling a policy as 'right wing' to frighten people away doesn't work.

Much of this is pure projection. You were the one who came in accusing women of not being pure enough so that the right had aligned with us. I think your views on “trans women” are misguided and naive, thats my opinion. I won’t apologise for it and I have as much right to speak my truth as you.

The suggestion that more people are left leaning or centre left than right or centre right is also misguided and naive, IMO. Funny for someone who claims to want to be left out of debate because it’s all too hostile and exhausting for you, how you keep popping back to tell women here that they are wrong. In Your Opinion.

The protests by Extinction Rebellion just pissed everyone off and alienated people. People with a martyr complex throwing soup at antique artwork and gluing themselves to walls.

BLM was accompanied by looting, aka property damage and theft. Black-owned businesses put up signs saying "Black-owned business“ and still got their windows smashed in and inventory stolen.

Occupy Wall Street achieved nothing and was marred by men sexually-assaulting women. A day ending in Y.

As we saw in this country in 2011, something can start as a good cause but will be hijacked by a rent-a-mob looking for a fight and even degenerate into rioting and looting. Ordinary people are rightly sceptical of mass protests. It's only naive student types who think that mass protests will change things for the better.

The idea that we can have a group of men who can use women only spaces, and that those spaces remain fit for purpose is not based in reality.

Saying it could work is ideological and not workable. Rather than explain how a space can be single sex yet admit both men and women, its easier to claim the policy is right wing. Its shifts the discussion from single sex spaces.

Algorithms are a thing, yes. How is that women’s fault?

You've pointed out, possibly without meaning to, a core truth of social media algorithms: they are made by men, reflecting men's priorities and worldview.

Wrong. The number of people who voted Leave was 37ish% of the total electorate because over a quarter of voters didn't turn up. https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/research-reports-and-data/our-reports-and-data-past-elections-and-referendums/results-and-turnout-eu-referendum

I haven't said anywhere that women aren't pure enough so the right has aligned with you. I don't even know what that means.

People who didnt vote must have been happy to leave the EU, otherwise they would have voted to remain.

Its delusional to think that there were masses of people who were keen to remain, but just couldn't be arsed to vote.

Voting to leave wasnt a minority decision.

I am a woman, and you are telling ME that I am wrong. In Your Opinion. Which apparently carries more weight than mine, because Reasons.

If anyone wants to understand why more people don't engage in the gender critical cause, this thread is a masterclass.

Because according to y'all, there is no reason at all why people don't engage in the debate, other than they are stupid/misguided/naive/lack critical thinking skills/intellectually lacking in rigour. The movement welcomes diversity of thought, unless it is anything less than ideologically pure, in which case it is evidence of stupidity/misguidedness/naivety/lack of critical thinking ability/the absence of intellectual rigour. It's really welcoming community though. Dive in.

IMHO if this board has one flaw it is that the vast majority on here give gender ideology more sympathy than it deserves. (I say that knowing that most on here are very clear in their support of women's rights).

I believe that women (and men, and LGB people) deserve and need sex based rights.

Can you please explain how and why ONE SINGLE sex based right or word or idea that everyone on earth agreed upon up until about 2015 should be given up to people of the opposite sex?

There is no debate. Women either have their full set of rights or they don't. The reason that people do not engage is either because they consciously support men's rights over women's (why engage if you've already made up your mind that women don't count), or they subconsciously support men's rights over women's and any hint of debate / involvement destroys their idiotic "men and women can both have women's rights" position.

Yes, In My Opinion you are wrong. Hope that helps! No one sees you as some all knowing arbiter of truth.

You’ve harangued women on this thread condescendingly about our “hardline” attitude to “trans women” as if we’re some groupthink Borg, and about the association you feel exists with the shadowy algorithm-manipulating “right”, which makes you frustrated at the “hyperbole” of current gender critical discourse and unable to engage. Also irritated that you can’t make us see the error of our ways, because people are continuing to disagree with you. No?

I do indeed disagree with you, on “trans women” being more at risk than women. On “trans women” being considered a different type of man to other men. That men using women’s toilets and other spaces has no harms to women and girls. I’m very happy to discuss why. You glibly dismissed the reasons you’ve been given by other women on FWR who don’t share your view. Fine, you do you. I’m not personally all that interested in what you think, I don’t think you’re some unbiased voice of reason in the way you obviously do, and I’m not doing PR for any “movement”, I’m sharing my opinions on a talkboard.

No one us saying people are too stupid to engage.

The thread is putting out ideas why more people arent being vocal, and others are saying why they agree or disagree.

The reason people here are critical of your stance is because it makes no sense. You want women only spaces to include men. Rather than saying why you support this, you became defensive.

Its really up to people to say why they support a situation that doesnt achieve its aim or is legal.

Agree.

I see nothing in @Bloozie posts that indicate she us trying to argue the rights of TIM to use women's toilets. She is using the fact that this is one aspect she personally doesn't have a problem with to illustrate her wider point. That people may be put off engaging because if they're not 'all in' they are not welcomed, when half an ally supporting on things they do agree with such as no men in women's sports, refuges or prisons is better than none.

Are you including me in that? Or some specific posters?

I'm not clear whether you genuinely think everyone who posts here except you agrees on everything (we don't) because you seem to recognise that's not true in other places.

I meant to try and find a blog post I found interesting on the Sorites paradox of who is "acceptable" in women's spaces, but ran out of time and couldn't find it.

Condescending bawbag windbag

I get very frustrated when women who oppose TiMs access to women's single sex spaces and services are portrayed as GC. Gender Critical Feminism is a branch of feminism that holds that the social structure that is Gender is a structure that imposes behaviours, roles and responsibilities on people based exclusively on their sex and that this structure is harmful to all people but is particularly harmful to women and girls. As such it is only tangentially related to the debate about the position of trans identifying people in society.

hollylawford-smith.org/what-is-gender-critical-feminism-and-why-is-everyone-so-mad-about-it/

Most of the abstainers were also happy to remain within the EU, otherwise they would have voted to leave. A minority of people wanted to leave, a smaller minority wanted to stay, and a still smaller minority of people didn't vote at all because they either didn't care, couldn't vote that day (e.g. ill in hospital), or, in the case of some people I know, felt unqualified to make an informed decision.

All minorities.

Also, the sex/society continuum is very visible on FWR.

. Men are men and women are women. The end.
. I know that you are a man but I will call you Daphne
. I know that you are a man but I will refer to you as she or her.
. I know that you are a man but you are safer in my toilet than the men's one.
. I know that you are a man but you need access to women's victim spaces and services.
. I know that you are a man but you should be accommodated in the female hospital estate.
. I know that you are a man but you should be accommodated in the female prison estate.
. I know that you are a woman.

We can all decide where we are on that spectrum.