What is "trans" and why does it justify undoing sex in law, society, culture and history?

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

In the Trolls thread @Tandora and I discovered that in a recent thread she had thought she was very clear about what "trans" is while I thought she was simply describing symptoms that could have many causes and did not justify why these symptoms should be treated as actual material facts by others.

• Trolls thread with our interaction on this page: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5420701-a-little-piece-of-insight?page=15&reply=147554941

• my question on the earlier thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420701-a-little-piece-of-insight?page=15&reply=147554941

Clearly I missed something in that earlier thread but I can't go back because it has reached its post limit, so rather than derail the trolls thread, I am restating my question here.

Looking forward to @Tandora engaging with my questions to help me understand what I missed about her position in the original thread.

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Tandora · 02/10/2025 21:28
Right- this is your question. which is why im trying to explain what being trans is. It's entirely relevant, the reason people can't comprehend the issue is that they simply can't comprehend what it is to be trans.
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FlirtsWithRhinos · 02/10/2025 23:13
But Tandora you haven't explained what being trans is. All you've done is played the old TRA game of "Not that" when anyone else tries suggest an definition, any definition at all, that appears to fit the random claims you are making that feeling very wrong in the sex you actually are is somehow interchangeable with being the sex you are not, or that a characteristic of the mind somehow overrides the reality and consequences of differences of the body for both the trans person and for others.

You have made all sort of hand wringing emotional claims on behalf of trans people, and roundly insulted everyone who doesn't accept your argument of "they just are, alright" as closed minded and uneducated (which frankly would be hilarious to anyone who'd ever met me), and yet never once explained exactly why this thing makes the differences of sex and the social consequences of those differences, facts that are entirely and unproblematically accepted as real in all other circumstances, suddenly inconsequential and irrelevant in the face of a trans person's mental self image.

So I'll ask you again.

What is "being trans" Tandora?
Is it being one sex but with a deep and aching wish you were the other sex, maybe like a blind person has a deep and aching wish to see, or a lonely little girl has a deep and aching wish that she had been born as one of the popular kids instead?

Or is it actually being, in an innate mental way, in ways we don't yet understand, the other sex, implying that sex is not in fact a descriptor of the body but of the mind?

Because take away the emotional manipulation and neither definition actually justifies the demands being made of women in its name.

Neither definition changes the fact that people with female bodies do exist and do face social and physical consequences because of those bodies, and neither a man's deep feeling that he should have had a female body, nor a man's deep feeling that women don't need to have a female body, changes the embodied experiences and needs and self knowledge of the people who actually have a female body one iota.

Because these are things that are entirely to do with the experiences of women, and so no experience or feeling, no matter how genuine, of a man is relevant to them.

And regardless of which definition you go for, in fact regardless of any definition you go for that places more weight on a man's idea of himself as a woman than the embodied fact of female existence, outside his own mind he is simply not relevant to who women in the original female sense are and what women in the original female sense need at all.

No definition of woman that is stretched to include male people is more relevant to the needs and experiences and reality of female people than the simple old fashioned sex based definition and there is sinply no way round that.
face of a trans person's mental self image.

So I'll ask you again.

What is "being trans" Tandora?

Is it being one sex but with a deep and aching wish you were the other sex, maybe like a blind person has a deep and aching wish to see, or a lonely little girl has a deep and aching wish that she had been born as one of the popular kids instead?

Or is it actually being, in an innate mental way, in ways we don't yet understand, the other sex, implying that sex is not in fact a descriptor of the body but of the mind?

Because take away the emotional manipulation and neither definition actually justifies the demands being made of women in its name.

Neither definition changes the fact that people with female bodies do exist and do face social and physical consequences because of those bodies, and neither a man's deep feeling that he should have had a female body, nor a man's deep feeling that women don't need to have a female body, changes the embodied experiences and needs and self knowledge of the people who actually have a female body one iota.

Because these are things that are entirely to do with the experiences of women, and so no experience or feeling, no matter how genuine, of a man is relevant to them.

And regardless of which definition you go for, in fact regardless of any definition you go for that places more weight on a man's idea of himself as a woman than the embodied fact of female existence, outside his own mind he is simply not relevant to who women in the original female sense are and what women in the original female sense need at all.

No definition of woman that is stretched to include male people is more relevant to the needs and experiences and reality of female people than the simple old fashioned sex based definition and there is sinply no way round that.

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@Tandora I don't have much free time this afternoon. Please don't take slow replies as bad faith and be assured I will be coming back to this thread when I have to engage properly as I really appreciate you wanting to explain this to me.

It's a little odd that you don't think people here know no trans people.

Loads of people here have children who are trans. Quite a few of them are on this thread.

There are at least 5000 posts on this very site from women who are married to transwomen. There are two boards dedicated to trans people.

Countless women here have trans colleagues. And all the teachers here will have numerous trans children in their school.

we have at least one female poster who was raped by a transwoman.

Not to mention the dozens upon dozens of transwomen who regularly post here to try and either berate women or convince us that they should be in our spaces.

is precisely because people have contact with trans ideology, in real life, that they disagree with it

So. My trauma vs trans people’s trauma.

mine is externally caused tbf, but other than that.

if causes me extreme distress to have a man in a WSSS.

I am mortified and beyond embarrassed that everyone knows what happened to me.

I am re-traumatised by that and re-traumatised by having to have all sorts of accommodations that everybody knows what they’re for and why they’re there. It’s really distressing to have to have all that happen.

What’s the big difference between my trauma and a trans persons trauma in the sense as described above @Tandora. Can you please explain it to me because I don’t understand.

Why do I have to suck up all the stuff that people know and have a special space for me in a building with access control etc and it’s not ok for a trans person to have a reasonable accommodation of ok we don’t expect you to use the men’s, you legally can’t use the women’s. So here’s a third space.

Because I genuinely don’t understand. I’ve been up half the night trying to find a way to explain it and make it make sense and I can’t.

Have done that. Lots. Met some wonderful TW who are more vocally GC than I was at the start. Men who had the surgeries decades ago, who acknowledge a) that their dysphoria was rooted in significant abuse from at least one parent (not necessarily sexual, and often the mother) and b) that in hindsight, knowing what they know now, they would never have transitioned because it did not make them happy, it did not cure them, it just means they have significant medical needs.

One in particular was a wonderful support when I approached him/her via twitter wondering whether I was indeed being a transphobic bigot. Others invited me for coffee so we could chat. They all agreed that what they experienced was a mental issue, even if feelings of disgust about their natal sex had begun in childhood [ref those abusive parents], and that whilst for some surgery/transitioning had ameliorated that to a small extent, ultimately it hadn’t fixed them. Their struggle continues. Most had attempted suicide post surgery at least once. They also agreed that, therefore, children under no circumstances should be fast tracked onto medication or surgery. As a result I took the view that I would watch and wait with my child.

So, most of us HAVE spoken to trans individuals in real life - though I confess I have never had any dealings with the AGP variety as my internal safety radar tells me quite firmly (as a CSA survivor) that they are dangerous and to steer clear. But the ones I have spent significant amounts of time with are ‘old school transexuals’ who transitioned in the 80s and 90s, and seem to be very self-aware and generous to parents like me, and young [often autistic] people. A few of whom were fast tracked to surgery by 19 - and are still very very ill (one was re-sectioned recently after yet another suicide attempt) - but many/most ‘grew out of it’ by the time they were 19.

My experience of talking with dozens of trans identifying people has corroborated all the research I have read and confirms, to my understanding, that it is the result of psychological distress and not innate in anyway.

But they probably aren’t trans enough for some people or are the wrong type of trans people, so their experience, their suffering doesn’t count.

Go talk to a trans person in the real world

I've known trans people since the late 80s. It is why I was never one of the 'be kind' people, and have never once said TWAW and have watched people fall for the lies and obscufication with my jaw on the floor. If I told you what some of them have said to me over the years I'd get banned from here immediately, And that's all part of the trickery. If they didn't need to hide the truth then not one person would have ever been banned from here for saying things that are blatantly true.

The fact that Tandora really thinks their 'explanation' is an 'explanation' and proof that we can never ask 'what IS trans' again because it is all explained on this thread is more proof of the lies, obscufication and delusion.

The difference between male trans peoples attitude to single sex spaces and womens attitude to single sex spaces, is that women need them to be single sex, male trans people don't.

You are saying it leads to trauma if trans people cant use the space. It doesnt matter who else is in the space or what they look like. Afterall, no one pretends to be trans to enter?

For women, the name of the place is irrelevant, its who is in the space. For trans people its the name thats important, not who is using them.

Oh god please tell me after all these posts we're not at 'if only you knew some trans ppl to talk too' 🤦🏻‍♀️

True it's not just males, but most of the neuroscience studies have been on males, I'm thinking in particular of those that show how some brain measurements that show values more common in female brains correlate with homosexuality in male brains, not transsexuality overall.

The reason I use "identifying" is because trans is typically framed around having an opposite-sex gender identity. So "trans-identifying male" means a male who calls himself a woman or female.

It also points to the observation that this isn't necessarily a lifelong, stable state but an identity that can come and go. Many don't adopt a cross-sex identity until later in life, and some detransition - through conscious decision, a change of perspective, or, in the elderly, as a result of forgetting their trans identity because of dementia.

I’ve worked with several men role playing as women and I work with some gender identity types now. Started ‘be kind’ and being all progressive about sharing the ladies bogs too until some frankly creepy incidents changed my mind.

my position is 100% built on dealing with real live ‘trans’ people

I think that the breakthrough will occur for TIM in medical research (if it ever does) when mainstream scientists pick it up.

Rather than being a small niche area with sparse and poorly designed studies (probably due to cost restraints) coming from places like the clinics, research needs to come from the separate disciplines.

So if one wants to argue that Trans is a neurological disease it needs to be accepted by neurologists.

If it is hormonal then Endocrinology.
Genetic the same. We need well powered large studies with proper arms of gay controls on a population that isn't picked by clinic staff and run by independent groups who know their stuff and then replicated.

It's not enough for a small group of psychologists or doctors with an interest in this area and who work in clinics to drive research.

It's a start and can help determine areas for research but claiming that it is known that being Trans is a x, x or x simply isn't known right now. There is too big a chance of subgroups. Not enough of the population is being tested and is possibly missing TIM who are sexually driven.

I'd like to know as an example if the genetic contribution is increasing.

Even when the causes or factors are known it may still be appropriate to treat it as a behavioural problem and treatment focused on helping the individual men to understand why they feel the way they do and stop them trying to force society to see them as women

@Tandora all the science, all of it, shows that male bodies (as are class) are stronger, faster and more robust than female bodies (as a class). I say all because one failed study of a certain cyclist sitting on a bike in the gym saying 'I can't pedal faster, it's too hard' while his mummy says you go girl isn't science.

In order to over turn the separate male female categories in sports I going to need something much more compelling than there is possibly a DSD that presents as a neuro divergence that makes some people really really really perceive themselves as the opposite sex. Because perception doesn't alter physical reality.

The last transwoman I spoke to was living with and sleeping with another transwoman.

The two of them wore women's clothes and make up when they went out but men's clothes and no make up round the house.

So, basically a couple of cross-dressing homosexuals, who had decided it was more interesting to pretend to be women. Sometimes. When it suited them.

that male bodies (as are class) are stronger, faster and more robust than female bodies (as a class)

Besides the point but I find the propagation of statements like this profoundly degrading as a female person.

This is so judgemental.

It's just a physiological fact.

It isnt though. It's sexism that you have digested this narrative wholesale.

In reality of course there is a huge amount of variation/ complexity, with some generalisable trends.

those generalisable trends aren't properly described in these terms at all. For example, as a very general trend (with masses of variation) female bodies are more likely to survive gestation/ infancy and women are more likely to live longer than men.- evidence that on average female bodies are more robust.

this is just one example. The organisation of all sports in binary terms based on sex reinforces this kind of sexism and will always result in female sports- and female bodies in general- being perceived as inferior to men's.

@Tandora quoting myself so you see this as I really genuinely would like an answer as I cannot make it make sense in my head and I really don’t understand and I’d be grateful if you could explain it to me.

It isnt though. It's sexism that you have digested this narrative wholesale.

Nonsense.
It's Physiology 101.

Your position is totally riduculous

We have to live in the real world, with facts.

There are significant physiological differences between men and women. To deny this makes you look totally clueless.

I can't believe that Tandora is now arguing that women and men have the same physiological muscle strength.

Trans people have come here many times to convince us that we are wrong. And they follow scripts. They start by telling us their pain, the work they have done, the obstacles they have overcome. The government and medical safeguarding they have met. Some will bargain and say they want x but not y.

Meanwhile of reddit, or on their forums (remember angels?) the discussion is different, more entitled and sexual. Lots of encouragement to just try in - whether it is drugs, cross dressing, or using womens spaces. Absolutely no talk about "knowing their sex" just what feels best.

If you truly are working with trans people, i think you are focusing on an extremely small subset, and ignoring the majority. I dont know what you think you are achieving.

In the context of most competitive sports it's true. Though that's because these are competitions where the physical attributes of males dominate.

I think there should be more emphasis on sports that celebrate what the female body can do (and that isn't achievable in the same way by males), such as gymnastics. Maybe even inventing new sports.

Oh I can believe it 🤪

what the female body can do

Can you hear yourself ?

I agree with Tandora that male bodies aren't more robust. They're more disposable too, that's partly why they're sent out to war.

Asking again @Tandora and quoting myself so you can easily find it.