What is "trans" and why does it justify undoing sex in law, society, culture and history?

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

In the Trolls thread @Tandora and I discovered that in a recent thread she had thought she was very clear about what "trans" is while I thought she was simply describing symptoms that could have many causes and did not justify why these symptoms should be treated as actual material facts by others.

• Trolls thread with our interaction on this page: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5420701-a-little-piece-of-insight?page=15&reply=147554941

• my question on the earlier thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420701-a-little-piece-of-insight?page=15&reply=147554941

Clearly I missed something in that earlier thread but I can't go back because it has reached its post limit, so rather than derail the trolls thread, I am restating my question here.

Looking forward to @Tandora engaging with my questions to help me understand what I missed about her position in the original thread.

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Tandora · 02/10/2025 21:28
Right- this is your question. which is why im trying to explain what being trans is. It's entirely relevant, the reason people can't comprehend the issue is that they simply can't comprehend what it is to be trans.
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FlirtsWithRhinos · 02/10/2025 23:13
But Tandora you haven't explained what being trans is. All you've done is played the old TRA game of "Not that" when anyone else tries suggest an definition, any definition at all, that appears to fit the random claims you are making that feeling very wrong in the sex you actually are is somehow interchangeable with being the sex you are not, or that a characteristic of the mind somehow overrides the reality and consequences of differences of the body for both the trans person and for others.

You have made all sort of hand wringing emotional claims on behalf of trans people, and roundly insulted everyone who doesn't accept your argument of "they just are, alright" as closed minded and uneducated (which frankly would be hilarious to anyone who'd ever met me), and yet never once explained exactly why this thing makes the differences of sex and the social consequences of those differences, facts that are entirely and unproblematically accepted as real in all other circumstances, suddenly inconsequential and irrelevant in the face of a trans person's mental self image.

So I'll ask you again.

What is "being trans" Tandora?
Is it being one sex but with a deep and aching wish you were the other sex, maybe like a blind person has a deep and aching wish to see, or a lonely little girl has a deep and aching wish that she had been born as one of the popular kids instead?

Or is it actually being, in an innate mental way, in ways we don't yet understand, the other sex, implying that sex is not in fact a descriptor of the body but of the mind?

Because take away the emotional manipulation and neither definition actually justifies the demands being made of women in its name.

Neither definition changes the fact that people with female bodies do exist and do face social and physical consequences because of those bodies, and neither a man's deep feeling that he should have had a female body, nor a man's deep feeling that women don't need to have a female body, changes the embodied experiences and needs and self knowledge of the people who actually have a female body one iota.

Because these are things that are entirely to do with the experiences of women, and so no experience or feeling, no matter how genuine, of a man is relevant to them.

And regardless of which definition you go for, in fact regardless of any definition you go for that places more weight on a man's idea of himself as a woman than the embodied fact of female existence, outside his own mind he is simply not relevant to who women in the original female sense are and what women in the original female sense need at all.

No definition of woman that is stretched to include male people is more relevant to the needs and experiences and reality of female people than the simple old fashioned sex based definition and there is sinply no way round that.
face of a trans person's mental self image.

So I'll ask you again.

What is "being trans" Tandora?

Is it being one sex but with a deep and aching wish you were the other sex, maybe like a blind person has a deep and aching wish to see, or a lonely little girl has a deep and aching wish that she had been born as one of the popular kids instead?

Or is it actually being, in an innate mental way, in ways we don't yet understand, the other sex, implying that sex is not in fact a descriptor of the body but of the mind?

Because take away the emotional manipulation and neither definition actually justifies the demands being made of women in its name.

Neither definition changes the fact that people with female bodies do exist and do face social and physical consequences because of those bodies, and neither a man's deep feeling that he should have had a female body, nor a man's deep feeling that women don't need to have a female body, changes the embodied experiences and needs and self knowledge of the people who actually have a female body one iota.

Because these are things that are entirely to do with the experiences of women, and so no experience or feeling, no matter how genuine, of a man is relevant to them.

And regardless of which definition you go for, in fact regardless of any definition you go for that places more weight on a man's idea of himself as a woman than the embodied fact of female existence, outside his own mind he is simply not relevant to who women in the original female sense are and what women in the original female sense need at all.

No definition of woman that is stretched to include male people is more relevant to the needs and experiences and reality of female people than the simple old fashioned sex based definition and there is sinply no way round that.

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@Tandora I don't have much free time this afternoon. Please don't take slow replies as bad faith and be assured I will be coming back to this thread when I have to engage properly as I really appreciate you wanting to explain this to me.

You said this ...

It's about one's perception of self.

And I'm saying, people's perceptions of themselves are frequently wrong. There is no reason why anyone should accept someone else's perception of themselves.

I don’t even know how other women perceive themselves to be honest. I just know how I feel.

Nothing is making it impossible for transwomen to leave their homes!

Yes I said that. that's what it is. It doesn't matter if it's "right" or "wrong"- (or if you think it's right or wrong). It's just is what it is.

What matters is how it affects the person, what can be done about it, and whether/ how to accommodate that person with that condition in society.

You think that because
you are not listening.

I'm under absolutely no obligation to accept something obviously false because someone else believes it to be the case.

Any more than I am obliged to be believe that my brother in law is hilarious, rather than a crashing bore.

Why do many many more women who are around. 50% of the population and for various reasons can’t have men in their SSSs have to be trapped at home because of the feeling of a very small percentage of the total population who are trans women ?

edited for clarity.

We think that because it is objectively true

If you want us to accept that not being able to use womens toilets is trapping trans women in their homes why can't you accept that not having single sex spaces traps some women in their homes??? Several women on this thread have told you this is the case. You are not listening.

yeah.

The extreme activists that use versions of that soundbite never then think it through. What happens when female people discover that they have had their consent overridden? At a minimum, to regain that trust may never happen. Or it could cause worse harm.

Either way, ‘if she doesn’t know, it won’t hurt her’ certainly looks like an abusers sentiment. It is a statement about dismissing consent. I don’t think those who use it think it through at all.

I'm not making any assumptions, but you certainly seem to be devaluing the experiences of people who identify as trans and describe their gender as fluid.

Is there something about the quotes that you don't like?

That’s unfair. I have been listening.

and I’m trying to understand why it is fair that I and many many others like me be driven out of society and made to hide at home because of what is, objectively, a very small % of the total population and why those people can’t use a fourth space, like I have to when I use a disabled toilet? (Which is the current third space and shouldn’t be appropriated by trans people. )

Why can’t trans people use the toilet and hospital wards and everything else discussed that aligns with their gender?

And why is it ok that when I say I want a female clinician Dr Upton appears and would potentially over ride my consent and tell me Dr Upton is a biological woman when that is patently not the case and is verbal dancing on the head of a pin to circumvent my consent?

Sex is a reality, gender is a social construct. Therefore gender identity is a socially constructed way of being.

To understand the reality of living as a woman, you have to experience living as someone who has the strength as a 12 year old boy when you are an adult.

No transwoman has ever reported that that is what they feel, no transman has ever reported feeling that they have the strength of a man.

Single sex spaces are required for females to participate in society safely because of the size and strength difference. It reduces the probability of females being attacked by males (which happens in private spaces and is generally motivated by sex) of which they cannot defend themselves.

Therefore as transwomen are men, there is no situation in which it would be possible for women to be safeguarded against the size and strength difference from a male.

The threat to Transwomen from other men, is a problem for men to sort out, not for women to solve. We solved our problem.

Whereas many women are self-excluding from gyms, pools and shops where they can’t be sure the changing rooms are single sex.

It's good to have at least established that there is no way to judge somebody else's gender identity, so it's not a very useful category to use.

Tandora
Your mother has been sharing public toilets with trans women all her life.

Unless she was born after the mid-fifties, I very much doubt that. They didn't exist before Christine Jorgensen. And what's more, if someone male had walked into the public ladies' loos in this country much before this century, the womenn in there would have shouted for help and that male person would have been ejected or removed.

How old are you, for goodness' sake?

This is me.

I cannot be behind a locked door with a bloke on the other side. So I make sure my gym (swimming pool I don’t gym I can’t) has single sex changing and I change in the open area.

Did we ever establish which facilities non-binary people were supposed to use, if it's impossible to use a toilet that doesn't align with your experience of gender?

@Tandora you are choosing to not listen to the questions the women on this thread are asking you. You make long winded word salad explanations about how men who identify as not men need to be affirmed and accepted by society as women but you have nothing to say when this is taken to it's logical conclusion.

Someone else (perhaps on another thread) very wisely said it's one thing to do the "be kind, we need to find a way" stuff but that is just empty words if practical solutions cannot be found.

Enough women are saying NO that is it just not feasible that biological men will be welcomed into womens single sex spaces or treated as such in society.

The way forward is not kind words and endless taking about identities but asking and seeking (in good faith) answers such as what does society say to women who say we do not want biological men however they present or identify, and regardless of what pieces of paper they have in our single sex spaces. If the answer to this is bigoted transphobes or endless arguments about how "trans women" aren't a threat to women then we can't move on.

I would add to that that society needs to now teach men that there are different types of men and they should all be welcome in men's single sex spaces.

This, with bells on.
I'm so sick of that comment.

It just isn't true!!!

"In good faith". Lol. I admire your optimism.

Also there are either one or 4 billion types of men dependent on whether we are defining "men" as "adult human males" or "adult human males with their own unique personality"

There are many of us who self-exclude or at least try to limit the amount of time we spend in public places so that we'll be unlikely to need public facilities.

That's why I can understand why transwomen or transmen who don't feel comfortable with using the facilities for their sex would try to limit the amount of time that they spend where they'd need to use the loo. That's why I think that gender neutral facilities make the most sense. I don't want transwomen or transmen to self-exclude bc they don't have a loo they can use without experiencing distress. I also support "you can pee next to me" bc I think it would ultimately be best for transwomen to feel comfortable in the gents and transmen to feel comfortable in the ladies. But allowing transwomen in the ladies means that many women can't use them (at least without experiencing a great deal of distress) so that doesn't work.

At the very least, those who want transwomen to use women's SSS facilities need to address how the needs of women who don't want share public toilets, changing rooms, SS services, etc. will be met, keeping in mind that sharing with men is very distressing (even traumatizing) or against religious rules for many of them.

And how that “sharing” will look so that women are not disadvantaged.

I think a fourth space is the best solution but apparently that is traumatising for trans people. But then I use disabled loos and I don’t like that but it’s what I have to do now as I can’t always manage mobility wise in a normal loo.

It's a profound, automatic, almost subconscious ,pervasive , all consuming direct perception of self - you can listen/ read the so , so many, many different ways that trans people have described this.

And yet you can't give a single, solitary example!!

Despite the all-consuming, studied for two decades, so many ways that trans people have described it, you can't come up with a single description of one thing that makes men think they're women.