What is "trans" and why does it justify undoing sex in law, society, culture and history?

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

In the Trolls thread @Tandora and I discovered that in a recent thread she had thought she was very clear about what "trans" is while I thought she was simply describing symptoms that could have many causes and did not justify why these symptoms should be treated as actual material facts by others.

• Trolls thread with our interaction on this page: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5420701-a-little-piece-of-insight?page=15&reply=147554941

• my question on the earlier thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420701-a-little-piece-of-insight?page=15&reply=147554941

Clearly I missed something in that earlier thread but I can't go back because it has reached its post limit, so rather than derail the trolls thread, I am restating my question here.

Looking forward to @Tandora engaging with my questions to help me understand what I missed about her position in the original thread.

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Tandora · 02/10/2025 21:28
Right- this is your question. which is why im trying to explain what being trans is. It's entirely relevant, the reason people can't comprehend the issue is that they simply can't comprehend what it is to be trans.
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FlirtsWithRhinos · 02/10/2025 23:13
But Tandora you haven't explained what being trans is. All you've done is played the old TRA game of "Not that" when anyone else tries suggest an definition, any definition at all, that appears to fit the random claims you are making that feeling very wrong in the sex you actually are is somehow interchangeable with being the sex you are not, or that a characteristic of the mind somehow overrides the reality and consequences of differences of the body for both the trans person and for others.

You have made all sort of hand wringing emotional claims on behalf of trans people, and roundly insulted everyone who doesn't accept your argument of "they just are, alright" as closed minded and uneducated (which frankly would be hilarious to anyone who'd ever met me), and yet never once explained exactly why this thing makes the differences of sex and the social consequences of those differences, facts that are entirely and unproblematically accepted as real in all other circumstances, suddenly inconsequential and irrelevant in the face of a trans person's mental self image.

So I'll ask you again.

What is "being trans" Tandora?
Is it being one sex but with a deep and aching wish you were the other sex, maybe like a blind person has a deep and aching wish to see, or a lonely little girl has a deep and aching wish that she had been born as one of the popular kids instead?

Or is it actually being, in an innate mental way, in ways we don't yet understand, the other sex, implying that sex is not in fact a descriptor of the body but of the mind?

Because take away the emotional manipulation and neither definition actually justifies the demands being made of women in its name.

Neither definition changes the fact that people with female bodies do exist and do face social and physical consequences because of those bodies, and neither a man's deep feeling that he should have had a female body, nor a man's deep feeling that women don't need to have a female body, changes the embodied experiences and needs and self knowledge of the people who actually have a female body one iota.

Because these are things that are entirely to do with the experiences of women, and so no experience or feeling, no matter how genuine, of a man is relevant to them.

And regardless of which definition you go for, in fact regardless of any definition you go for that places more weight on a man's idea of himself as a woman than the embodied fact of female existence, outside his own mind he is simply not relevant to who women in the original female sense are and what women in the original female sense need at all.

No definition of woman that is stretched to include male people is more relevant to the needs and experiences and reality of female people than the simple old fashioned sex based definition and there is sinply no way round that.
face of a trans person's mental self image.

So I'll ask you again.

What is "being trans" Tandora?

Is it being one sex but with a deep and aching wish you were the other sex, maybe like a blind person has a deep and aching wish to see, or a lonely little girl has a deep and aching wish that she had been born as one of the popular kids instead?

Or is it actually being, in an innate mental way, in ways we don't yet understand, the other sex, implying that sex is not in fact a descriptor of the body but of the mind?

Because take away the emotional manipulation and neither definition actually justifies the demands being made of women in its name.

Neither definition changes the fact that people with female bodies do exist and do face social and physical consequences because of those bodies, and neither a man's deep feeling that he should have had a female body, nor a man's deep feeling that women don't need to have a female body, changes the embodied experiences and needs and self knowledge of the people who actually have a female body one iota.

Because these are things that are entirely to do with the experiences of women, and so no experience or feeling, no matter how genuine, of a man is relevant to them.

And regardless of which definition you go for, in fact regardless of any definition you go for that places more weight on a man's idea of himself as a woman than the embodied fact of female existence, outside his own mind he is simply not relevant to who women in the original female sense are and what women in the original female sense need at all.

No definition of woman that is stretched to include male people is more relevant to the needs and experiences and reality of female people than the simple old fashioned sex based definition and there is sinply no way round that.

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@Tandora I don't have much free time this afternoon. Please don't take slow replies as bad faith and be assured I will be coming back to this thread when I have to engage properly as I really appreciate you wanting to explain this to me.

Right I've managed to grab a few minutes break so I'll tackle as much of this as I have time for.

Sympathy - I'm not unsympathetic to trans people, because unlike you I don't regard them as a monolith so my sympathy varies. It is different for an autistic teenage girl who feels she doesn't fit in with her popular, glossy haired, drawn on eyebrows, mini skirted cohort that excludes her and is dragged towards feeling she must be trans because she doesn't feel like the other girls than it is for AGP adult male fathers. I know you will reject any references to blokes wanking in knickers in the M&S changing rooms as mud slinging, moral panic etc and dismiss.such things as not trans, but like it or not there are men who identify as trans who behave this way. It doesn't really matter if you regard them as trans or not, or if I do or even if deep down in their soul whether they do because allowing trans women into women's spaces allows these men in too.

So to your thought experiment.

First I'm Sarah has done exactly what you suggest in pursuit of female only rape counselling. A male group and trans group and an anyone who identifies as female wasn't enough for the trans community they also insisted that there should not be in parallel a biological female group and Sarah had to fight to have one. We know that even if there is a unisex option available many trans women will reject it and demand access to the women only spaces.

Would a only actual women space be outing as a marker of rape victims erm nope because I would use it and I have never been raped. Flip that round and unisex spaces aren't putting to trans people as I'm sure good allies would use them too. I would probably have used them in some circumstances when my son's were younger as the too old for the ladies too young to change at the pool alone years were stressful.

Third spaces may be doable in some spheres but the reality is no government is going to build women (gender) prisons and women (sex) prisons so your solution still leaves places where sex v. gender will clash so one has to be favoured over the other. You still don't seem to have explained why in these case gender should 'win' and sex based rights should be put aside.

Finally women have already fought the fight. I know you say you don't have much knowledge/interest in sport but I will give you a.potted history of football. Women fought be allowed to play football developed teams became popular and successful only to be banned by the FA in 1921. They fought again to be allowed to play in FA ground and were finally branded recognition in 1971. Now women have fought for a third time this time to keep.male bodies out of female football. Trans players haven't fought for a trans league once. Why the hell should women abandon the clubs they have fought for 3 times already and start again from scratch just when the women's game in on the crest of a wave?

"wibble wibble hatstand"
😂😂🎯

Which means that s/he doesn't think that transvestites, autogynephiles, transvestic fetishists or trans maxxers are trans (which is transphobic according to Stonewall, or did they remove tranvestites, I can't recall?)

This poster is at best some "postmodern sociologist" writing about robots and post humanism (the sink/cesspit of academia or whatever a pp said 😂) and at worst just a liar, and therefore I'm not interested in what s/he has to say.

A clear statement of fact can never be silly (because it is a clear statement of fact) and can never be pointless (because Truth Will Always Matter and Truth Must Always Win.)

Wibble wibble hatstand.

I think that's the most sensible thing on this thread 😂

Sounds great - may I strongly suggest that men who claim to be women and vice versa stick to the normal single sex spaces for their unchanging sex so that the 4th spaces can be used by much more deserving people - parents with pushchairs, disabled people with an opposite sex carer, ambulant people with disabilities and frailties etc

"My purpose here was simply to offer you all a coherent and clear explanation of what it is to be trans."

You haven't been able to because there isn't one even among trans people. There are too many subsets.

You haven't said anything which explains

• why female to male trans aren't insisting violently and vocally on using male spaces

• why both mtf and ftm trans categories contain many people who believe that they cannot change sex, but only want to be allowed live in a way they perceive as being the opposite gender.

• why it is OK to explore with a mentally ill child why they might want to identify as an apex animal, a lion or a bird of prey, yet exploration of why a girl might want to identify as male in a patriarchal society where men hold most of the power is not allowed.

• the role of childhood trauma and influences like parental homophobia or even parental munchausens by proxy.

• how autogynophilia appears to be a wholly different subset, and one which is quite threatening to women, especially lesbian women.

• how a 'trans lesbian' who wants penetrative sex with women is not simply a heterosexual male who wishes to present outwardly on the female end of the gender spectrum

And so many more questions like this.

No idea, but I'm open to the possibility that if someone described it properly I'd sudden recognise it and realise exactly what they are talking about.

It still would not override the needs (physical and social) that female bodied people have because of our bodies, but it might illuminate a way forward that recognises the mental commonalities in a different way.

If those innate mental commonalities should indeed exist.

Now personally based on my lived experience I do not think it is likely they do, but I see no harm in being open minded. And taking the perspective of "yes that could be true but it still does not justify the current demand" avoids arguing about it.

Abstracts for all three:

Olson, Kristina R, Aidan C Key, and Nicholas R Eaton. “Gender Cognition in Transgender Children.” Psychological science 26.4 (2015): 467–474. Web.

A visible and growing cohort of transgender children in North America live according to their expressed gender rather than their natal sex, yet scientific research has largely ignored this population. In the current study, we adopted methodological advances from social-cognition research to investigate whether 5- to 12-year-old prepubescent transgender children (N = 32), who were presenting themselves according to their gender identity in everyday life, showed patterns of gender cognition more consistent with their expressed gender or their natal sex, or instead appeared to be confused about their gender identity. Using implicit and explicit measures, we found that transgender children showed a clear pattern: They viewed themselves in terms of their expressed gender and showed preferences for their expressed gender, with response patterns mirroring those of two cisgender (nontransgender) control groups. These results provide evidence that, early in development, transgender youth are statistically indistinguishable from cisgender children of the same gender identity.

Genetic Link Between Gender Dysphoria and Sex Hormone Signaling (2018)

Abstract
Context: There is a likely genetic component to gender dysphoria, but association study data have been equivocal.
Objective: We explored the specific hypothesis that gender dysphoria in transgender women is associated with variants in sex hormone-signaling genes responsible for undermasculinization and/or feminization.
Design: Subject-control analysis included 380 transgender women and 344 control male subjects. Associations and interactions were investigated between functional variants in 12 sex hormone-signaling genes and gender dysphoria in transgender women.
Setting: Patients were recruited from the Monash Gender Clinic, Monash Health, Melbourne, Australia, and the University of California, Los Angeles.
Patients: Caucasian (non-Latino) transgender women were recruited who received a diagnosis of transsexualism [Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)-IV) or gender dysphoria (DSM-V)] pre- or postoperatively. Most were receiving hormone treatment at the time of recruitment.
Main outcome measured: Genomic DNA was genotyped for repeat length polymorphisms or single nucleotide polymorphisms.
Results: A significant association was identified between gender dysphoria and ERα, SRD5A2, and STS alleles, as well as ERα and SULT2A1 genotypes. Several allele combinations were also overrepresented in transgender women, most involving AR (namely, AR-ERβ, AR-PGR, AR-COMT, CYP17-SRD5A2). Overrepresented alleles and genotypes are proposed to undermasculinize/feminize on the basis of their reported effects in other disease contexts.
Conclusion: Gender dysphoria may have an oligogenic component, with several genes involved in sex hormone-signaling contributing.

The Biological Contributions to Gender Identity and Gender Diversity: Bringing Data to the Table (2018)

The American Psychological Association defines gender identity as, “A person’s deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or a male; a girl, a woman, or a female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral) that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics” (American Psychological Association, Am Psychol 70(9):832–864, 2015). Here we review the evidence that gender identity and related socially defined gender constructs are influenced in part by innate factors including genes. Based on the data reviewed, we hypothesize that gender identity is a multifactorial complex trait with a heritable polygenic component. We argue that increasing the awareness of the biological diversity underlying gender identity development is relevant to all domains of social, medical, and neuroscience research and foundational for reducing health disparities and promoting human-rights protections for gender minorities.

I have given you an example of someone that your theory excludes. I've given it several times. The example is Eddie/ Susie Izzard you haven't engaged with my argument you've ignored it.

So once more for clarity is Eddie trans? If so how does his sometimes 'boy'/sometimes 'girl' version of trans work with your hypothesis? If no should Eddie be allowed in the ladies loo anyway?
This is the problem with trans, this is what we mean when we say there is no definition. Eddie spent many years telling us he wasn't trans (they aren't women's clothes, they are my clothes) now he tells us he is but only some days which absolutely doesn't work with how you define trans. But whatever the reason or definition there is no way for me to tell if the male bodied person in the female CR is trans or a chancer and even if I could tell I still don't want to change in front of them. It is the female CR and they are observably not female.

Gender cognition is those girls in Cottingley. Poor old Doyle looks so nuts.

Are you claiming you think humans can change sex? And that to deny that is a silly statement? Or are you saying trans people only change gender?

None of the above

I have no idea whether eddie izzard is trans or not. Why do you expect me to have the ability to diagnose celebrities about whom I know nothing- and nor do you.

So why did you say that humans can’t change sex is a silly pointless statement? I mean, can facts be silly and pointless?

But Eddie claims to be trans on some days and not trans on others so how does this fit in with your theories?

I'm not asking you to diagnose - I'm asking you how gender fluid people fit into you theory of what is is to be trans. Does you view exclude them or include them? if they are included how? If the excluded how does society handle them in the need to be inclusive to trans people?

If I really studied that I might understand something of what it meant, but a little light reading bears minimum fruit.

Using implicit and explicit measures, we found that transgender children showed a clear pattern: They viewed themselves in terms of their expressed gender and showed preferences for their expressed gender, with response patterns mirroring those of two cisgender (nontransgender) control groups.

Does it say what these measures actually are?

Or is it do you think you're a girl, yes, well so do girls, so that's that.

So have we decided what trans is yet or are we still confused whether it’s a DSD, psychological, a feeling or something else? I mean, all these theories have been posited recently but the TRA never seem able to come to a consensus.

Your suggestion that trans status can be diagnosed puts you at odds with many in the trans community.

However, if this is how you would define being trans, you do need to explain what criteria Eddie Izzard would need to meet to be trans, it it is not simply that he identifies as trans.

Well quite. All I'm getting is that there may be a genetic reason why some people suffer from gender dysphoria.
But I don't see how this makes them members of the opposite sex, rather than simply more aligned with the opposite gender stereotypes.
Happy for a bigger brain than mine to weigh in though

I'm pretty sure understanding transgender ideology is not easier with a bigger brain, in fact I believe the reverse might be true.

I think the reason Tandora thinks the questions is silly is because the answer isnt consistent within TRA. Sex has to be in the eyes of the beholder to keep the trans umbrella together.

Try talking to lots of trans people, and sex becomes what we would understand, a spectrum, something that can be change, something that can be partially changed, separate to gender, exactly like gender, hormones, a made up concept, all at once.

Allies try to rational the inconsistencies away by saying sex is irrelevant to the discussion. Its gender thats important, and gender is the feeling of being a man or a woman.

But that negates the trans people who genuinely think they have change sex, or the ones who being trans is living as the opposite sex, knowing their real sex. For those people sex is important.

Or is it do you think you're a girl, yes, well so do girls, so that's that.

I mean, even if it's do you like climbing trees, do you like playing with dolls - it's a bit like asking girls who identify as tall to volunteer for a study then your finding is that such girls are closer to the average male height than the average female height. No shit Sherlock.

Finding any brain difference between girls and boys that isn't socially mediated is difficult and fraught with controversy. Before Helen Joyce we were all reading Pink Brain Blue Brain, right?