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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Leisure centre call police on one woman with a hand sewn #redflag banner

93 replies

WhoopsINameChangedAgain · 28/09/2025 09:45

On Saturday 27 September 2025, in a leafy suburb of Newcastle upon Tyne, one lone woman protested the recent decision to change the leisure centre single sex changing rooms into one mixed sex area with no changes to the changing cubicles.

Despite the peacefulness of the protest, and considerable positive engagement from service users who stopped to chat to her, the staff called the police.

Thankfully the officer was rightly not concerned and happy for her to continue her peaceful protest.

https://x.com/wrn_neandnyorks/status/1972197438363713594?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Pics for those not on twitter; police officer can be seen through doorway behind her.

Leisure centre call police on one woman with a hand sewn #redflag banner
Leisure centre call police on one woman with a hand sewn #redflag banner
OP posts:
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10
WhoopsINameChangedAgain · 31/10/2025 06:12

Thanks @Keeptoiletssafe , vital information. Now I think of it the gap under the shower cubicle they’ve added in sure is practically non existent. You’d not see if anyone has collapsed in it. And yes it’s extremely humid and hot in there now that so many people use it.

OP posts:
WhoopsINameChangedAgain · 31/10/2025 06:14

I’m glad a local middle school teacher commented as I had been wondering how that works. Im a teacher and have taken children swimming for years. It’s especially challenging in changing villages, and if the child has a particular religious background

OP posts:
Keeptoiletssafe · 31/10/2025 12:53

MrsM1ggins · 31/10/2025 01:15

Thank you so much. It's great to get input from someone who has some expertise in this area.

I have been very critical of the toilets they have installed. Do you know if the previous versions of Approved Document T had the same definition of universal toilet? I have the 2024 release and the current facilities ARE NOT compliant, but I don't have any documents showing the rules at the time the work was done. If you have copies of the earlier versions of the relevent regs that would be really helpful.

I've been told the changes were done around covid.

Hello thank you. I have become an expert on the health and safety implications of door gaps after researching why they are disappearing for several years now!

This is a very long post where I am trying to condense a lot of information and reasoning (that I have mentioned a lot in the past to others) because you said the leisure centre was signposted to this thread. Apologies if I have repeated anything.

I will say I want everyone to be safe. The most vulnerable could be any of us (regardless of sex, gender etc) having a medical emergency. Women and children are more at risk of assaults in private spaces in public areas.

As to what happened when, Document T is based on British Standards BS6465 that have been round for a long time and are updated periodically. They or parts are due for renewal soon. There are 4 parts to it and I believe part 1 covers swimming pools. However, the British Standards cost a lot of money to buy and are normally only accessed by people such as architects. I haven’t got access to the Standards and all their versions. The info I posted upthread about gaps in from the standards at the critical time they were writing the 1992 Health and Safety legislation. I doubt anyone had a thought that the ‘woman’ definition would be contested or that everyone would be carrying a slim phone video camera in their hand at that time. The thing is, the reasons for the gap design to keep people safe and healthy hasn’t changed.

I think it was because toilet provision was becoming an ‘anything goes’ in terms of design in lots of venues that hadn’t followed standards, that the previous government decided to make the design requirements free and very accessible and put Doc T in the public realm. People were relying on venue toilets as government public toilet provision has all but disappeared.

I have researched Doc T consultations and analysis for why the detail about gaps being a health and safety measure was not mentioned. The gaps were not only not discussed as a positive, they were being discouraged for people with long term health conditions. I did not expect to find this result. This was due to a Stonewall campaign targeting private gender neutral toilets and transgender safety (based on a 2018 report where the worst thing that was detailed was two women pushing a man out of the ladies after he did not want to leave when told to) and designers who were on Stonewalls diversity award scheme prioritising transgender topics rather than focusing on their remit of looking at people with longterm health conditions. Most of the long term health conditions weren’t even mentioned. Their ‘evidence’ was that enclosed toilets were better because that was the preference of transgender people in New York nightclubs. This is all facts. I am not being controversial here - I can back this all up as the documents and government analysis are on the internet. My comments (about saving a strangers life due to a door gap) and my experience as a teacher, seeing seizures and hypos were ignored. So was a charity that wrote in. I have no idea if others said the same as I can only go on what I know personally regarding inputs. The consultation was so skewed it appeared that only 3% supported disabled facilities because most of the responses were mentioning transgender concerns.

When researching cardiac arrests and lamenting no one was collecting data, I saw a correlation between private design and assaults. Rapes and sexual assaults are more likely to happen in places where the perpetrator can’t be seen to be stopped. Disabled toilets (mixed sexed, private, enough space) were often a place to be ‘misused’ for consensual and non-consensual sex. For example, in a three year study, it was found there was one rape reported per school day in British school premises. This was a report compiled by the BBC in 2016 which was discussed in Parliament. Annoyingly the locations weren’t known. The examples I found were in a school store cupboard and disabled toilets.

I have written to the Health and Safety Executive and they have confirmed single sex facilities are the only ones that can have door gaps. They have said this is single sex designs C and D. Universal designs A and B (mixed sex, enclosed, sink inside) cannot. I have discussed with them the fact that they didn’t specifically mention door gaps for health and safety and that they should mention universal designs should have gaps if they are used in a single sex area. They acknowledge my concerns.

Document T does specify that universal toilets are sound resistant, private, have a safety lock that can be opened easily from the outside and the door swing can be altered to swing outwards in the event of someone collapsing by the door (this happened to us, we lifted someone over the door to enable them to drag the young woman away from the inward opening door). Without a door gap, people end up being in toilets, sometimes for days, without anyone noticing because the door safety features that are mentioned in Document T can end up being retrospective and not safeguarding or prevention.

I have done a lot of research into secondary school design (not covered under DocT). A common theme is private designs are misused for sex, drugs and are vandalised. This is more so if it’s unisex (commonly referred to as gender neutral). Hidden cameras are being used. Girls are avoiding using toilets (Tbf this has always been the case). Tragically, there have been secondary school children who have died in these private designs in the U.K. - I cannot say if the design was a contributing factor to a delay in cpr.

In contrast, for years in school design specifications, the designated private unisex toilet was by the entrance near the reception where it could be noticed who was going in and out. Mixed sex toilets require a lot more supervision. I also note OP you’re a teacher too. Checking who is in toilet blocks for fire drills is so much easier when there’s door gaps and you are being timed. If there are major changes to provision, the fire service do need to inspect.

I note you’ve said people are avoiding one swimming pool and going to another with single sex provision. This is in keeping with what I find. Even females that don’t want to use women’s toilets, then complain about feeling unsafe in both unisex and men’s toilets and that they less clean. The trend is men who don’t want to use men’s toilets more often want to use women’s toilets, not unisex. It is scientifically proven there are the most pathogens in unisex toilets in uk hospitals, the least in female toilets.

With my campaign I am arguing it is a reasonable adjustment for those with medical health concerns, to have a gap for health and safety. There are millions of people it this country with heart conditions, diabetes, epilepsy, asthma etc. who are more at risk. There’s a stroke every 5 mins and a heart attack every five minutes in this country. Likewise women and children are more affected by serious sexual assaults so need design that prevents adverse things happening in a cubicle. Practically, for the above, that’s a simple door gap. Practically, that means single sex design as the default with a single sex area in front of the cubicles. The exceptions are for young children and cleaners (as has always been the case).

If you want links to anything I have discussed, I can supply. I also use this diagram which illustrates some of what I have been saying much more succinctly!

For what happens with mixed sex toilets (with gaps), the WRN did some good images you could use too:
https://www.womensrights.network/school-toilets

Leisure centre call police on one woman with a hand sewn #redflag banner
DrPrunesqualer · 31/10/2025 18:31

Tbf. The legislation is already there to provide ss provision as the default with
mixed/ gender neutral if there is space

What needs to change is the law on building and service providers needs to be upheld
With the loss of building control officers from our councils and most now outsourced we no longer have the protections that we used to have.

New buildings and those undergoing major works must and always have ( inc prior to the changes) been required to conform to ss provision

The issue of gaps for seperate unisex and gn facilities outside of a bank of facilities must always consider privacy and dignity, hence no gaps
We simply can’t have gaps and provide privacy and dignity.

The only alternative therefore is to have
Ss facilities and Transwomen and trans men seperate facilities
with disabled and accessible cubicles placed within each of the four ‘types’. Most service providers do not have the space and hence are not required to provide all the variables

A coffee shop for example may only have room for one all encompassing toilet leading off the seating area. For privacy and dignity and to at least provide a toilet it must be fully enclosed with an alarm and emergency access from the outside.

Disabled facilities in schools are placed near entrances so that visitors can also use them. The % occupation in these buildings is low hence their multi use.

All of the above is already in the building regs and Bstandards.

Now that we are seeing more cases brought to tribunals because service providers are not following their obligations I’m hoping others will see through the previous abuse of the regs

BettyFilous · 31/10/2025 19:29

JellySaurus · 30/10/2025 09:24

Women go quiet and leave, rather than complain. Women feel they have to accept being anxious and afraid in order to access resources apparently provided for them.

Fight
Flight
Freeze
Fawn
Flop

The last reaction most women use is Fight, because we know we are easily overpowered by men. But written complaints are also Fight reactions. You are right - we need to complain. Loudly. Every time. Not just when something has gone wrong, but before something completely predictable happens.

I have been avoiding my refurbished local pool because of the vile ‘changing village’. I’m going to bite the bullet and go for a swim so that I can complain about it.

This is true. I cancelled my membership of a centre with lax changing room arrangements and found an alternative with properly enforced women’s changing rooms. I didn’t tell the old leisure centre why. I simply voted with my feet.

Shedmistress · 31/10/2025 19:34

How can they say they had no complaints when you @MrsM1ggins complained yourself?

MrsM1ggins · 31/10/2025 19:42

I assume that's because people "moan about it all the time". If it's common/constant then maybe it just becomes like wallpaper that you don't notice so the comments aren't escalated to management.

I am going to suggest to them that they should have a stand down with their staff to figure out if that's the case.

SidewaysOtter · 31/10/2025 21:09
dallas cowboys hello GIF by Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders: Making the Team

Wow, go @MrsM1ggins, you absolute shero!

Heggettypeg · 31/10/2025 21:15

MrsM1ggins · 31/10/2025 19:42

I assume that's because people "moan about it all the time". If it's common/constant then maybe it just becomes like wallpaper that you don't notice so the comments aren't escalated to management.

I am going to suggest to them that they should have a stand down with their staff to figure out if that's the case.

It reminds me of the old joke about "it's funny, people keep asking for those. But we don't stock them any more; there's no demand for them".
.

Keeptoiletssafe · 31/10/2025 22:41

DrPrunesqualer · 31/10/2025 18:31

Tbf. The legislation is already there to provide ss provision as the default with
mixed/ gender neutral if there is space

What needs to change is the law on building and service providers needs to be upheld
With the loss of building control officers from our councils and most now outsourced we no longer have the protections that we used to have.

New buildings and those undergoing major works must and always have ( inc prior to the changes) been required to conform to ss provision

The issue of gaps for seperate unisex and gn facilities outside of a bank of facilities must always consider privacy and dignity, hence no gaps
We simply can’t have gaps and provide privacy and dignity.

The only alternative therefore is to have
Ss facilities and Transwomen and trans men seperate facilities
with disabled and accessible cubicles placed within each of the four ‘types’. Most service providers do not have the space and hence are not required to provide all the variables

A coffee shop for example may only have room for one all encompassing toilet leading off the seating area. For privacy and dignity and to at least provide a toilet it must be fully enclosed with an alarm and emergency access from the outside.

Disabled facilities in schools are placed near entrances so that visitors can also use them. The % occupation in these buildings is low hence their multi use.

All of the above is already in the building regs and Bstandards.

Now that we are seeing more cases brought to tribunals because service providers are not following their obligations I’m hoping others will see through the previous abuse of the regs

I am so glad you emphasised the loss of building control officers. I take notice of many newer loos and can’t work out how they got signed off. I have spoken to the fire service about this too.

Single sex ambulant toilets can take a bit of pressure off disabled facilities. They should have door gaps too (obviously) as they are designed for frailer people.

moto748e · 31/10/2025 22:51

Way back in the 70s I worked at a junior level in civil engineering and building work. And this is what I find a bit hard to work out now. Cos, I'm thinking, this all has to be signed off, there's a system, Building Control, etc. So how is this happening? The last couple of posts have opened my eyes. 🤔

MrsM1ggins · 31/10/2025 23:23

The changes at Gosforth were done without planning permission or building control.

WhoopsINameChangedAgain · 01/11/2025 10:38

have been today; the gaps under all cubicles go all the way round each cubicle. I hadn’t tuned into that before (normally persuading reluctant swimmer to swim.)

The gap under the contained shower is even taller and goes all the way round.

OP posts:
DrPrunesqualer · 01/11/2025 12:17

Keeptoiletssafe · 31/10/2025 22:41

I am so glad you emphasised the loss of building control officers. I take notice of many newer loos and can’t work out how they got signed off. I have spoken to the fire service about this too.

Single sex ambulant toilets can take a bit of pressure off disabled facilities. They should have door gaps too (obviously) as they are designed for frailer people.

All accessible toilets can have gaps if they are located within a single sex space
If they aren’t
ie off a mixed use corridor or public space they can’t

DrPrunesqualer · 01/11/2025 12:23

MrsM1ggins · 31/10/2025 23:23

The changes at Gosforth were done without planning permission or building control.

if you are making an internal change only ( no extensions or external volume change) to a non listed building you must get building regs approval
You don’t need planning permission

Not just for this subject matter here but for many other areas ie drainage, fire etc

You should report the swimming pool to the local planning authority

DrPrunesqualer · 01/11/2025 12:27

moto748e · 31/10/2025 22:51

Way back in the 70s I worked at a junior level in civil engineering and building work. And this is what I find a bit hard to work out now. Cos, I'm thinking, this all has to be signed off, there's a system, Building Control, etc. So how is this happening? The last couple of posts have opened my eyes. 🤔

Building control is now outsourced. In the70s it was all done by central Government

It’s incredibly difficult to even check which private company is dealing with compliance.

Building control also have no liability for the checks they do and for signing off a building. Remember how difficult it was to source the culprit for Grenfell. All works of which were signed off by bc.

Villagetoraiseachild · 01/11/2025 13:12

I applaud you MrsM1ggins.
Thank you so much for your efforts, please keep chipping away.
I really hope you win this, for Gosforth and beyond.

Keeptoiletssafe · 01/11/2025 20:59

@DrPrunesqualer BSR in the HSE seem sensible people. I was in touch with them last year. I reckon they are rather busy at the moment!

There does seem to be this disconnect with some of the quick and ‘easy’ solutions EHRC seemed to be proposing and the reality of what happens in practice and building standards.

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