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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thoughts on Camp

54 replies

Angelabdc · 28/09/2025 09:35

I was watching Strictly Come Dancing last night and thoroughly enjoyed the performance of La Voix and found myself laughing at the performers' post dance interview comments in the spirit they were made. I consider myself to be GC and wanted to do a bit of self-analysis and express possible contradictions in my own world view. I think it comes down to the idea of something being "camp" as defined by Susan Sontag and others as self-aware, frivolous and humorous. La Voix is usually Chris and has a clear boundary between his performing persona and his real identity. I do not personally find anything offensive in his drag persona anymore than I did with Lily Savage or Dame Edna but rather would characterise it as way to say the unsayable, or be bolder in a subversively funny way. I appreciate others will disagree with this and happy to engage with them on this. But I do think there is a fundamental difference between that kind of exaggerated self-conscious display and a doctor who solemnly tells a tribunal that they are literally a man because they consider themselves to be so, or to someone whose everyday drag consists of crotch grazing skirts and size 50G fake boobs. I think that stems from a lack of self-awareness and that is why it provokes such discomfiture amongst those of us who perceive it as delusional.

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 29/09/2025 17:33

ErrolTheDragon · 29/09/2025 14:37

@MarieDeGournay- it occurred to to me that for those of us of a certain age, our first exposure to ‘camp’ was via the classic radio comedy shows, broadcast at prime time and full of double entendres etc. These were from a time when male homosexual acts were illegal in the U.K., so they were properly subversive - men pushing back against a repressive society, nothing to do with women at all. I’m not sure if ‘camp’ is very much related to drag at all.

Julian and my-friend-Sandy😁
It was also many people's introduction to Polari, wasn't it?

There has always been a gay/lesbian underground culture where men dressed up as women and referred to each other as 'she', but how it became national policy is one for future social scientists!

and there have always been very butch lesbians who tried to pass as men - they probably felt that the only way to attract women was to be as much like a man as possible. I think there's something very sad about that, and one of the improvements in lesbian culture is that you don't have to deny your woman-ness to attract other women.
I think that might be the influence of feminism - another one for the social scientists, but in my own case, discovering feminism was really important as I learnt to value and respect the women I was attracted to, and value and respect myself as a woman instead of a failed man.

This process was hastened by overhearing my [and soon to be ex] first girlfriend saying to a friend of hers that I was fun to be with, but only until a man came along...
Believe me, that caused some very rapid and very far-reaching thoughts about my sexuality and identity, I was never again going to be any non-lesbian's next best thing until Mr Right came along😠

finallygettingit · 29/09/2025 17:41

gosh that's awful
I feel like I should apologise on behalf of straight women everywhere
but wrt to 'camp' and gay men, I've recently come across 2 gay men who you could describe as camp in manner and speech but not at all feminine in looks or dress. And then there are accounts of gay men being teased or worse for 'feminine' (=camp?) speech/gait/gesture which they describe as involuntary, which makes me wonder where it all comes from

MusettasWaltz · 29/09/2025 18:09

finallygettingit · 29/09/2025 17:41

gosh that's awful
I feel like I should apologise on behalf of straight women everywhere
but wrt to 'camp' and gay men, I've recently come across 2 gay men who you could describe as camp in manner and speech but not at all feminine in looks or dress. And then there are accounts of gay men being teased or worse for 'feminine' (=camp?) speech/gait/gesture which they describe as involuntary, which makes me wonder where it all comes from

I think it's unquestionable and not a bad thing that many gay men are a bit more drawn than the average man to more feminine stuff. That goes from the little boy who likes dolls & dresses etc (obvs that DOENSN'T mean a boy will be gay, but many gay men have such tales) to the disproportionate number of gay men in creative industries, dance, fashion etc, as well as being more likely to be in caring professions.

There's discussion of the so-called gay voice (higher than average) which I think is probably true for some gay men naturally & that's fine. Just as apparently more lesbians than average have a bit lower voices, though I don't think that's a huge thing.

MusettasWaltz · 29/09/2025 18:58

What I don't think is that exaggerated camp behaviour is innate. I'm not saying men shouldn't do it if they really enjoy making lots of hand gestures etc but head tilt, hand waving, posing & dainty walking etc are not how anyone naturally behaves.

I do think part of it may be that there's pressure to conform within the gay community in some areas? I know some lesbians who naturally dress feminine etc but speak about feeling pressure to have short hair etc when they came out bc they thought that was what you did, and also wanted to be read as gay to make getting dates easier.

Otoh there is this article that was much-cited when it came out in 2017 bc it talked from the inside about the way many gay men treat each other badly.

One man quoted (Grant) said he became self-conscious of how he stood, 'hands on hips, one leg slightly cocked like a Rockette'. There's nothing wrong with that & he shouldn't have felt pressured to change it. Otoh I don't know any women who habitually stand like that, feminine ones included.

https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/gay-loneliness/

Why Didn't Gay Rights Cure Gay Loneliness?

The surprising new science of the closet.

https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/gay-loneliness/

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