The government must fix the flaw in its digital identity plan

[IwantToRetire]

Sir Keir Starmer has announced plans for a compulsory UK-wide digital ID scheme for the right to work.

Whatever your position on mandatory or voluntary digital identification, one thing is certain: it only has one job to do. If any digital identity system is going to work, it must enable people to prove who they are, and prevent them from falsely proving that they are someone else.
Sex Matters has been sounding the alarm about a flaw in the system since 2022: identifying individuals reliably is not compatible with allowing people to disappear from their old life in one sex and reappear with a new life and a new identity in the opposite sex.

During the passage of the Data (Use and Access) Bill, together with Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom, Sex Matters called on the government to solve the problem and explained how. It’s really not difficult: you just need to keep sex data accurate and stop letting people change their records.

Continues at https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/the-government-must-fix-the-flaw-in-its-digital-identity-plan/

What about women who drape themselves in black robes from head to toe. How will they be identified?

Haha I think you absolutely just hit the nail on the head in why it's doomed to fail.

For exactly the same reason that lead to the downfall of Johnson's Brexit plan and eventual departure.

Ohhh the irony.

Such a shame for lying people who lie to be outed in their lies and not able to be free to move through life without being outed in their lies.

I'm so done with this bullshit.

Gender non-conform to your heart's content, but lying about your sex needs to get in the bin.

I suppose the rational would be - If, for example, one presents convincingly as male, having a gender of male explains that discrepancy between appearance and sex and allays suspicious that someone is using a stolen or borrowed identity. It's not clear to me that's a persuasive argument as it should be perfectly acceptable to 'present convincingly as male' and not seek a special marker from the government to allow that.

Given that only a small proportion of trans-identifying people have actually gone through the process of getting a GRC to change their legal sex, while many others claim identities which aren't legally recognised, such as non-binary or genderfluid, it would be more accurate to make birth sex the requirement for everyone.

I'm getting to the point that I don't think trans should be recognised in the EA.

Why should it? It's either a lifestyle choice or a mental illness. Probably will get banned / deleted but can anyone show me why I'm wrong?

Please do. Give me evidence as to why this category needs protection and I'll happily look into it.

https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2019/5/16/pregnant-trans-mans-misdiagnosis-leads-stillbirth

EA 2010 permits employers to reserve posts for people with specific protected characteristics eg male or female sex, gender reassignment, and also (despite it not being a protected characteristic) being 'cis'. So the information is relevant.

Yes, that was one case - but the discussion there misses the obvious solution, that medical records should always include the correct sex, and that trans patients shouldn’t conceal it.

I'm in favour as I see through my work how this could benefit society. I know many won't be keen and I'm not surprised about the backlash due to civil liberties etc.

The ID card should be factual, so just have facts like sex and date of birth.
Many, like me, aren't believers that the concept of gender is anything other than a concept that people can choose to believe. In reality, no transition has or will ever take place (no sex change).

Yes ideally medical records should have biological sex on their records of course, but in that case she told the hospital she was transgender and they also ordered a pregnancy test but ‘did not consider it urgent’. She didn’t conceal her sex?

"Sex" is not a legal concept but a biological classification. "Legal sex" is meaningless snd should be treated as such. Should we refer to people's "legal height" as opposed to their actual height?

So you’re saying you want trans people to be able to lie on government identification whilst everyone else has to tell the truth? Is it only sex people can lie about is any category allowed? And no, article 8 does not apply.

But you don't change sex you change gender and if people can id out of previous names/genders it isn't showing a true picture of who they are. We'll have countless India Willoughby's wanging their id cards about saying their "real women" if there isn't facility to identify that they're trans.
Why would it lead to any more discrimination?

Northern Irish people can already hold British-issued identity documents, namely British passports, without the GFA collapsing. Why should this British-issued identity document be any different?

The mandatory nature of this is the issue, surely?

Nobody in NI is forced to have a British passport. They can choose a British one, an Irish one, or both. The choice is the crucial thing.
Some in NI see themselves as British, some do not.

This is it.

The whole point of an ID system is to contain only accurate information. People are not being prevented from living out their fantasies in their everyday lives. They will just not be allowed to give false information where it matters, eg a trans-identifying man getting a job allowing intimate access to women who expect a female employee.

Can someone explain a bit more about why Irish people living in Northern Ireland makes this complicated?

I presume any ID system would show residency and citizenship status. So each of those may be relevant or not relevant for any specific reason.

Only UK residents would need to hold them. Presumably if anyone has the right to work in the UK but isn’t living here, then their employer would need to check that right a different way. This wouldn’t be limited to an NI/I issue. There will be UK passport holders who live in France and commute via Eurostar for part of the week who will be entitled to work here.

I presume non-UK residents would be able to voluntarily use the app, but it might not be compulsory.

Are you saying it would not be legal under the Good Friday Agreement to require a non resident to hold a digital ID to verify their right to work in the UK?

Or are you pointing out that some rights in the UK depend on things other than UK residence? That would be true of voting, for example - I seem to remember that UK resident Commonwealth citizens can vote in elections.

it may be that a digital ID would just say, for example/
Right to work Yes/No
Right to vote Yes/No
Right to access certain NHS services free Yes/No
Etc etc.

@DuchessofReality
Identity in NI is mixed. Some see themselves as British, not Irish.
Some see themselves as Irish, not British.
Some see themselves as Northern Irish.
Or a mix of the above.

The GFA allows those in NI to identify as they choose. You can be Irish and not British if you so choose. For some of this group holding a British identity card will be problematic as they do not see themselves as British at all. The right to identify only as Irish is enshrined in the GFA.

@DuchessofReality
This is from the 2021 census via Wikipedia.

I see. So you mean there are residents of Northern Ireland, who (I presume) do not hold a British passport, do hold an Irish passport, identify only as Irish, and whose right to work in the UK would be based (potentially) on their Irish passport regardless of residency, who would object to being required to hold a British identity document?

I see the point and I am sure there may be tensions around it. But fundamentally a digital identity would record only facts. Such people would be UK resident and Irish citizens. A card showing they were UK resident would not mean they weren’t Irish.

Does Ireland have an ID card system? If so, then a northern Irish person could work in the UK based on their Irish ID.

Yes, there are Irish people in NI who would object to holding the ‘Brit card’ as it’s being called @DuchessofReality. Their rights to identify only as Irish and not British are protected by the GFA.

None of the political parties in NI support the card though. The Unionist parties don’t support it either from the pov of civil liberties. They also don’t think it will work.

Ireland doesn’t have an ID card system @parietal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yv2gj5pd4o.amp

They can, but they don't have to. Many people don't have passports, even now. However it seems the digital ID will be mandatory if you want to work in the UK and not all people in NI identify as British, which is allowed for in the GFA. That's as much as I know. It's a complex area.

I don't use a mobile phone ( and never have) out of choice. I understand that the ID would also be available on a card. You cannot force people to buy phones they don't want.