The removal of ladies toilets

[Sparks654]

I like many women, have been really dismayed at the removal of separate sex public toilets - and also the lack of discussion and women's voices being raised and heard on this topic. I live in Somerset, and where I live the town hall, and all public toilets are mixed sex. Private businesses also seem to be either refurbishing their facilities to remove ladies and gents toilets, or new businesses directly are making all toilets mixed sex.

This is actually silently excluding women from public spaces, although I know anecdotally of men who've told me they feel uncomfortable with the mixed sex bathroom arrangement and that they are intruding on women's space. In fact recently I was visiting an art gallery and had no option but to use the facilities - which I discovered are now unisex. A man entered and saw a row of women and asked - "this is unisex isn't it?" He hovered awkwardly at the door.

I wonder if other regions are noticing the same thing? Polls seems to suggest that over 70 percent of the population want single sex toilets and yet with public money they are being removed? I feel this is actually silently excluding women and girls from public spaces we might have been able to access. Now I feel obliged to check in advance where I am going to know if there are ladies toilets available, and I am finding something that used to be a given, and a women's health service, is disappearing. Wonder what is happening elsewhere and if there is a free discussion taking place, or - if in my experience - a dose of cancel culture is stopping the question of women's rights being raised?

I think they will get around it by saying there are separate sex facilities in the older building, which is literally next door, unfortunately.
Not very practical when you’ve booked a hot desk in the new one though!
I think I will anonymously give “feedback” on the new design but unlikely to change anything

I don’t think it is illegal if they are self contained units.
I feel your pain though, went to two London museums recently- one had unisex self contained toilets but the first three I tried were too gross to use. The other one was small and just had two unisex cubicles, both gross so we decided to wait and go to a bar to use the loos instead.

Yes, as a volunteer you have to be careful (although as an employee you can also get into hot water, obviously). I work at a charity for vulnerable women and it looks as though a trans or ‘non-binary’ man might be joining. Of course I won’t say anything about this, as I want to keep my role. But I imagine the users might not be happy, and several will drift away.

I don't find it acceptable - if you enter one of these set ups on your own, it is highly uncomfortable because you don't know if a man is going to walk out and it's just the two of you. I am particularly concerned for my daughters in this sort of scenario, or any girl or young woman going to the toilet on her own.

What was that acronym I used previously IANOEOUK...? 'I am not an expert on UK building regs' but logic tells me that a new building is a building and what is available in a separate building is neither here nor there..

When you are giving your anonymous feedback, maybe you could refer them to Toilet accommodation: Approved Document T and ask them how the absence of single-sex toilets complies with the 2024 version of Building Regs which specifies that they should be provided? [Assuming it is in England].
My post at 10.39 quotes the relevant parts.

At least that would put it up to them that current building regs are very clear about sex-segregated toilets being a requirement, space permitting😠

Most of the toilets I used when I was on holiday in England this summer were completely self contained unisex. Without fail they were disgusting and smelt vile. The only ones that were ok were proper ladies. I know people will say that women’s can be bad too, but this was my recent experience.

This was mentioned from the time of the SC judgment and is looking like being the next wave of needed legal cases.

Mixed sex/unisex replacing women's single sex continues to exclude women who cannot use mixed sex provisions

The reason for removing women's single sex facilities is to avoid upsetting men who don't want women to have them, and to avoid having to say no to men

All of it benefits men to the detriment of women, on a sexed basis. The whole point of inclusion is that all needs are met; inclusion is not a man-only thing. Human rights are not a man-only thing. Discrimination.

Time to make the point, loudly and clearly, that if it's a great big huge worry that some poor man with a trans identity might be uncomfortable and excluded, then obviously it's an equal worry about women isn't it? Unless you are in fact a male supremacist hiding under a trans flag. And this discrimination gets expensive in court.

I live in a bankrupt council area (financially, not morally) and we don't have public toilets anymore, which I suppose is one way to deal with the issue.

I have a hierarchy preference of crap mixed sex toilets

• ones which were separate sex but have had the labels taken off the door so the "gender neutral" cubicles are in a room with urinals - 1/10 will not use
• narrow/long/dark corridor leading to bank of mixed sex toilets 1/10 would never go back
• mixed sex single cubicle toilets opening to the outside of a building or inside a cafe where the door is visible - 3/10 would use as safer than other options but still dirty

I'm sorry if it derails your thread, but does the building legislation referred to also cover students at FE college?

My son (XY) has gone back to college and is very upset that there are now a row of individual cubicles each opening on to the corridor and then communal handwashing facilities for male and female together.

He has a medical condition and would not like to advertise it by having to use disabled loos. Last term, there was separate boys and girls toilets and he was coping.

I am going to contact college anyway, so any advice will be put to good use and hopefully also helpful for girls. Thank you.

If private enclosed rooms with wash basin that’s fine tho of course that would mean far fewer toilets available as you can fit so many more cubicles in one bathroom space.
Cubicles for mixed use are not acceptable at all.

As I said upthread, it's so depressing, nobody wants this, especially women. And yet it is being foisted on the public by the 'lanyard class'. Even if they are breaking the law of the land, they don't seem to care. But rather prefer to patronise and insult women who object.

If I was running a 'populist Left' party, along the lines of 'the many, not the few', this is exactly one of the issues I'd be hammering home: here is a classic case of ordinary people being denied their rights under the law by an elite grouping who wish to force their ideology onto the public. Harry Perkins would have been all over this!

That might be fine from a safety point of view but they are almost always dirtier ime. Men stand up to pee, women sit down. That alone suggests that single-sex is better for women. I know my DH will use (if necessary) really terrrible loos because he doesn't actually need to be as close to the toilet as I do! As always, women are disregarded.

Agreed. The men I know hate unisex loos and dh refuses to use them.

The building legislation for education premises can be different. The college (if it’s in England) maybe following these guidelines and sometimes there is confusion over whether a single use room contains a sink. I think it should.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employers-requirements-for-college-projects-part-a-and-part-b
Also look at 2A

By the way, the above are GUIDELINES the DfE have told me after they also told me they didn’t hold any risk assessment or equality impact assessment on their designs!

The DfE mentioned that every employer has to abide by Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 (that is the foundation for 1992 legislation).

Theres also this which covers children up to 25:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/6/part/3

There’s also some good resources on the Sex Matters website.

Separate facilities for women were hard-won, to give women privacy, dignity and safety. What has changed? Why are those things no longer seen as important?

Because some men wanted in of the basis of nothing more than they said so, and rather than abiding by the law and saying no to these men, it's been decided if they can't have the womens facilities then no one can. Turn the whole thing unisex so that these men don't have a massive tantrum and kick off. This way they still get to subject women to their presence. Must placate them somehow.

There is also the attitude often found in men's comments on newspaper columns which quite enjoys the whole 'well you moaned so now you get nothing, see what happens to you when you get out of your box ladies?'

This entire shitshow has demonstrated, loudly, that women's 'rights' were never anything more than a very shallow veneer. Unisex is because men do not want women to have single sex facilities or boundaries, do not want to hear the word 'no' from women they want to use, do not care if women are excluded or harmed because who cares about women, and because organisations understandably do not want to have to deal with a huge guy in a skirt who has a difficult relationship with reality and is shrieking in their face about how very dare they.

I was in one very recently, I can’t remember where now but maybe a theatre or a museum. There was no obvious option of single sex and there were middle aged blokes hovering before going in and looking uncomfortable at the wash basins so it isn’t just us women who don’t like them although our reasons for disliking them are weightier. It’s only since they became a thing that I realised that male piss actually smells different and more pungent. It shouldn’t be a surprise as it’s true of done other species too. It’s really unpleasant.

I had to use mixed sex toilets yesterday in a Cafe Nero. There were 3 fully enclosed toilets with sinks and I had to queue in a very small narrow corridor for them with two men - it felt very uncomfortable and I left at one point as I didn't feel happy being in such close proximity to them. When I finally got to use the cubicle the loo seat had been left up and there was wee on it - had to grab a wodge of loo roll (fortunately there was loo roll) to prise it apart from the lid and put it back down. Having to wee with men standing outside in such a narrow space, albeit behind a locked door, felt very uncomfortable. This was in a large city centre place, not a small cafe. I absolutely hate them.

It's spitefulness.

It’s absolutely horrendous for many reasons. My local band pub has now changed its loo’s to unisex. It can get a bit rough depending on the band. It’s tedious queuing with pissed blokes, could be dangerous given the nature of enclosed spaces and the toilets were disgusting.
At work we had to share a loo whilst the Gents was being repaired. Even that one day was enough for the floor and seat to be covered in piss.

I'd rather have toilet's in the first place....all our public toilets are closed

Yes the local leisure centre has just converted what was a ladies loo with two cubicles and a gents (which I assume had one cubicle and urinals) into two unisex. Properly done so self contained but why? Fortunately I live nearby so hardly ever need to use them.

Most men would prefer single sex with urinals too.
And all because a few men who pretend they are laydees have a tantrum.

The only thing that might force a change back is when men have to start queueing for the Ladies as we do.

Male urine does smell different to female urine. One poster on another thread linked an article that showed the smell was how her guide dog got her to the right toilets.

Both men and women can tell the difference in studies. Men also have a worse sense of smell than women which is a small mercy for their smellier toilets 😬😅

Of course women are being heard. They're heard and blithely ignored.

but it’s not excluding women from public spaces, 30% by the statistic don’t have an issue and many of the 70% won’t actually care that much it’s just a poll was presented to them and they chose single sex because that was the norm. Good quality shared facilities (with basin in cubicle) are absolutely fine to use, and I’ve never had issues with them being any worse condition wise that single sex ladies toilets. I think in larger buildings and public spaces there is a case to have both segregated and mixed facilities, the latter are so much easier for families with children of both sexes, saves the how old to go in alone question. In smaller spaces mixed is fine as long as good quality