Page 7 | Rising Christian nationalism: a threat to us all

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 11:39

persephonia · 26/09/2025 07:46

The thing about "cultural Christianity" is that when people do describe it, all the things they describe rely on certain things being done by other people. Not on the absence of other religions. So of course if you send your children to Sunday School they will grow up with that experience. If you don't, they won't. But Sunday School also relies on other people running it. And all the other things described:

Visiting Church fetes - requires volunteers running those fetes
Church weddings and funerals. Requires the vicar but also requires the upkeep of the church for those events

-Christmas/Easter - the same -Carol services. Huge amount of work behind the scenes- regular practicing, parents taking their children to practice

Etc etc. None of those things rely on their not being Muslims. But when some people talk about protecting "cultural Christianity" they don't mean by volunteering at church.

Eg. You have Kemi Badenoch who describes herself as a "cultural Christian" saying
A typical Liberal Democrat will be somebody who is good at fixing their church roof and – you know – people in the community like them
This is meant to be an insult!
And then later she talks about how she is a"cultural Christian" from growing up in Nigeria where people are very religious. But she is also sort of quite disparaging about those people themselves. She gives the impression she thinks she's cleverer than them.

Like I said earlier, there is a kind of superiority from these kinds of people, which is far worse than from a straight up atheist. They rely completely on people who either believe strongly in Christianity or at least are prepared to put the hours in "fixing the church roof"/organising choirs but they want to feel superior to them and they don't seem to want to acknowledge their reliance on them. Instead there is a nagging sense that as church attendance drops they might lose the things they like. But they want to blame Muslims/immigrants for that gradual change in culture. It feels quite dog in a manger. Muslims by and large are not stopping people bringing up their children as Christians or attending church or maintaining church buildings.

There's nothing wrong with being a cultural Christian. But it is a passive position (which is also fine) not everyone needs to be involved in everything. You don't need to believe in Christianity or actively participate to enjoy being part of a culturally Christian country. I think if you want to claim that that passive position is under threat though, then you can't also mock those that fix church roofs etc. And you can't blame immigrants.

It's the same for other stuff too. If noone volunteers for cricket, village cricket will die. If noone shops at the high street the high street will die. The last government smashed funding for libraries so many are only kept open by volunteers. Who are constantly disparaged for being middle class/woke. Neither of those things are true.

It's like me not bothering to change the oil I my car and then, when it breaks down, blaming my neighbour for washing his car every weekend.

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Interesting, but I think it is used sometimes more in the sense of how our moral systems are loosely arranged?

As in, Christianity is about generosity, charity, love thy neighbour, mercy, etc. This is - as I understand it - a large part of what distinguished it from Judaism, which was 'fear thy god' (see the OT) and subsequently Islam, which was 'obey thy god'. Christianity was 'love thy god'.

I do think that some of our social structures could in theory be replaced by secular ones, but these require building almost from the ground up, without the heritage and heft of history (which yes, is Xtian in the UK) behind them.

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 11:40

I mean, I'd have imagined being 'culturally Christian' is just describing one's upbringing and outlook having been informed by environment, it's not a specific statement of intent?

Charredtea · 26/09/2025 11:43

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 07:23

You're describing a society that has lost trust in its institutions, I'd say. The anti Enlightenment. Looking at some of these institutions, one can hardly blame them. I could make a mirror list from the 'other side' of a polarised, tribal, society who feel exactly as you describe, but with the opposing set of beliefs. I guess one could call it the accepted Orthodoxy or the Omnicause.

Pro maskers started off clapping the NHS, kneeling at BLM marches in small UK towns, then cheered 'Trans Women are Women', fundraised for teenagers to get their genitals removed, started going on about how we must Be Kind like it was a diktat, said Trump was going to invade Canada, chanted 'From the River to the Sea' when they didnt know which river or which sea they were even talking about, then cheered Hamas, etc.

Note how much of that is.imported politics.

What isn't healthy is the tribalism. I mean, it's human. But its not helpful.

Mostly we are in the middle, muddling along.

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Clapping at the NHS was one of the weirdest things.
I walked past a group whilst I was holding bags of shopping and with my then smaller kids and some people started clapping at me in a horrible way, hard to describe how it went down, especially as we’re so far past that time now. I also saw a woman clapping in her car whilst on the road having slowed down to turn a corner.
i was a key worker in public services throughout so having neighbours angry clapping at me was weird.
also whilst key working out and about caught a stranger photographing me, presumably for being outside.
do many more stories like this, just one working mum going about my daily business.
so yes, there were scary things happening on both sides of the coin

SionnachRuadh · 26/09/2025 11:55

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 11:40

I mean, I'd have imagined being 'culturally Christian' is just describing one's upbringing and outlook having been informed by environment, it's not a specific statement of intent?

Without wanting to stretch the analogy too far, I think it's a bit like how older people who want to be trans allies might come out with a lot of jargon about sex not existing, but tacitly they know it's a polite fiction and there are circumstances where sex matters.

The trouble comes when you've gone years being unable to say that sex exists and sometimes matters, and next thing you know there's a generation of young people who actually believe this stuff and aren't just doing it out of politeness.

I sometimes think of older atheists like Richard Dawkins or Philip Pullman who I'd say are absolutely culturally Christian, and they even explicitly say that. But the culture they value depends on there being a critical mass of people who really are actively Christian, not necessarily a majority but enough to keep the traditional religion ticking over. I don't think they'd like to live in a society where nobody under 70 is Christian. Russia experimented with that and it didn't work out too well.

JamieCannister · 26/09/2025 12:12

SionnachRuadh · 26/09/2025 11:55

Without wanting to stretch the analogy too far, I think it's a bit like how older people who want to be trans allies might come out with a lot of jargon about sex not existing, but tacitly they know it's a polite fiction and there are circumstances where sex matters.

The trouble comes when you've gone years being unable to say that sex exists and sometimes matters, and next thing you know there's a generation of young people who actually believe this stuff and aren't just doing it out of politeness.

I sometimes think of older atheists like Richard Dawkins or Philip Pullman who I'd say are absolutely culturally Christian, and they even explicitly say that. But the culture they value depends on there being a critical mass of people who really are actively Christian, not necessarily a majority but enough to keep the traditional religion ticking over. I don't think they'd like to live in a society where nobody under 70 is Christian. Russia experimented with that and it didn't work out too well.

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I disagree. We both grew up with actively christian mothers, and turned out atheist culturally christian. We have never pushed god or atheism on our kids, and they bother seemed to believe when young and taught at Primary, then become atheist well before puberty. I would say our kids are culturally christian. I'd like to think if they have kids they have a moral code that goes beyond english law that they will pass on. Teaching someone to be nice and polite and caring is hardly rocket science that requires weekly church and actual faith.

persephonia · 26/09/2025 12:28

SionnachRuadh · 26/09/2025 11:55

Without wanting to stretch the analogy too far, I think it's a bit like how older people who want to be trans allies might come out with a lot of jargon about sex not existing, but tacitly they know it's a polite fiction and there are circumstances where sex matters.

The trouble comes when you've gone years being unable to say that sex exists and sometimes matters, and next thing you know there's a generation of young people who actually believe this stuff and aren't just doing it out of politeness.

I sometimes think of older atheists like Richard Dawkins or Philip Pullman who I'd say are absolutely culturally Christian, and they even explicitly say that. But the culture they value depends on there being a critical mass of people who really are actively Christian, not necessarily a majority but enough to keep the traditional religion ticking over. I don't think they'd like to live in a society where nobody under 70 is Christian. Russia experimented with that and it didn't work out too well.

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To be fair, I know lots of non Christians who are good, polite, generous. A lot of the values I like most about Christianity aren't exclusively held by Christians. I disagree that you need to be raised in a Christian culture to learn how to queue for example. It is very British for sure and I like that we do.

However, some people on here are talking about how Christianity informed our moral systems, which then informed how we structure society/our culture. That's fair enough, but some of those same people want to reject the moral systems/moral teaching because they are weak/lead to us being taken advantage of. The Quakers and religious radicals who helped shape British law would not be welcome at Trumps or Farage's table. Some of the laws they pushed for wouldn't either.
So then: we don't have Christian belief and we don't have belief in the moral systems and values that come from that. And we don't have respect for some of the institutions/laws that came from that (trial by Jury, equal voting rights). All they have after that is a vague idea that value systems are a good thing for other people to have, and a very shallow pool of vague customs that are supposedly Christian in origin. Even the human rights based laws - should also be suspended when needed because they make us weak. I like queuing/saying thank you. But it's not OK if you are queuing up to set a hotel with people in it on fire.

Or maybe, everything I have said is supporting your argument. I don't know. I do think that trying to ape the most superficial aspects of Christianity - (arguing about St Augustine on Twitter, demanding women dress modestly) or banging on about "Western values" won't help. It's like a nonChristian absorbed the worst stereotypes about Christian fundamentalists and decided that's what they wanted but without God. Ironically Kemi Badenoch and Peterson were talking about the (now disregarded) "Cargo Cult Syndrome" as it related to everyone they didn't like but couldn't see the irony.

Imnobody4 · 26/09/2025 12:58

I used to believe in reason and the fundamental goodness of humans. I don't believe in the latter anymore. So with no unifying faith and political parties which can't argue constructively without demonising opponents I feel pretty pessimistic. Post modernism is neither rational nor ethical, it's just sophistry. A fundamentalist version of Islam has a renewed certainty and is beginning to shape our laws and practices in ways I can't support or tolerate
'The Age of Nothing' by Peter Watson is interesting.
'In a commanding narrative, Watson provides a historical perspective on the shift in our attitudes towards capitalism, while exploring the philosophical roots that underpin it. Of central importance in Watson's theory is Nietzsche's warning regarding mankind's responsibility for 'the death of God' - and the consequences thereof. Nietzsche's views on the frailty of human values in a world bereft of religious faith were echoed by writers including Tolstoy, Marx and Kandinsky - and his chilling message went on to resonate with thinkers throughout the 20th century. When Max Weber called the modern world 'disenchanted', and argued that society must choose to create a new value system based on knowledge or else surrender and embrace a religious faith, he was the latest in a long line of intellectuals attempting to address the problem Nietzsche had laid bare.'

DeanElderberry · 26/09/2025 13:01

Abhannmor · 26/09/2025 10:05

Egg curse ! The mind boggles.

Btw @DeanElderberry if you find a dead animal on your land and suspect a curse , you must leave it at a ' meering' , that being a place where several lands adjoin. That way the curse rebounds on the evildoer. So said my grandmother anyway. Very important life hacks eh.

That's useful. A townland boundary runs through my garden, which is good.

It's all about the egg curses round here, though I know someone who found a suspect piece of bacon in a barn and got the parish priest to say a Mass to counter the power of 'the woman'. It worked (just as well, he'd paid half a crown).

Merrymouse · 26/09/2025 13:03

SionnachRuadh · 26/09/2025 11:55

Without wanting to stretch the analogy too far, I think it's a bit like how older people who want to be trans allies might come out with a lot of jargon about sex not existing, but tacitly they know it's a polite fiction and there are circumstances where sex matters.

The trouble comes when you've gone years being unable to say that sex exists and sometimes matters, and next thing you know there's a generation of young people who actually believe this stuff and aren't just doing it out of politeness.

I sometimes think of older atheists like Richard Dawkins or Philip Pullman who I'd say are absolutely culturally Christian, and they even explicitly say that. But the culture they value depends on there being a critical mass of people who really are actively Christian, not necessarily a majority but enough to keep the traditional religion ticking over. I don't think they'd like to live in a society where nobody under 70 is Christian. Russia experimented with that and it didn't work out too well.

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I think they are also talking about culture in terms of church architecture and music and art and the language of the King James Bible.

I wonder how much this compares to being culturally influenced by Greek and Roman culture?

Merrymouse · 26/09/2025 13:15

persephonia · 26/09/2025 12:28

To be fair, I know lots of non Christians who are good, polite, generous. A lot of the values I like most about Christianity aren't exclusively held by Christians. I disagree that you need to be raised in a Christian culture to learn how to queue for example. It is very British for sure and I like that we do.

However, some people on here are talking about how Christianity informed our moral systems, which then informed how we structure society/our culture. That's fair enough, but some of those same people want to reject the moral systems/moral teaching because they are weak/lead to us being taken advantage of. The Quakers and religious radicals who helped shape British law would not be welcome at Trumps or Farage's table. Some of the laws they pushed for wouldn't either.
So then: we don't have Christian belief and we don't have belief in the moral systems and values that come from that. And we don't have respect for some of the institutions/laws that came from that (trial by Jury, equal voting rights). All they have after that is a vague idea that value systems are a good thing for other people to have, and a very shallow pool of vague customs that are supposedly Christian in origin. Even the human rights based laws - should also be suspended when needed because they make us weak. I like queuing/saying thank you. But it's not OK if you are queuing up to set a hotel with people in it on fire.

Or maybe, everything I have said is supporting your argument. I don't know. I do think that trying to ape the most superficial aspects of Christianity - (arguing about St Augustine on Twitter, demanding women dress modestly) or banging on about "Western values" won't help. It's like a nonChristian absorbed the worst stereotypes about Christian fundamentalists and decided that's what they wanted but without God. Ironically Kemi Badenoch and Peterson were talking about the (now disregarded) "Cargo Cult Syndrome" as it related to everyone they didn't like but couldn't see the irony.

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I agree with all of this.

I acknowledge that my cultural background and ethics are heavily influenced by Christianity - years of school assemblies, church going grandmother, growing up in a country where the public holidays are tied to the church calendar, attending weddings and christenings etc. etc.

However, I don't know whether that means I have anything in common with somebody from a very different Christian culture.

I assume I would find it easier to live in the American midwest than China, but it wouldn't be my culture.

persephonia · 26/09/2025 13:15

Imnobody4 · 26/09/2025 12:58

I used to believe in reason and the fundamental goodness of humans. I don't believe in the latter anymore. So with no unifying faith and political parties which can't argue constructively without demonising opponents I feel pretty pessimistic. Post modernism is neither rational nor ethical, it's just sophistry. A fundamentalist version of Islam has a renewed certainty and is beginning to shape our laws and practices in ways I can't support or tolerate
'The Age of Nothing' by Peter Watson is interesting.
'In a commanding narrative, Watson provides a historical perspective on the shift in our attitudes towards capitalism, while exploring the philosophical roots that underpin it. Of central importance in Watson's theory is Nietzsche's warning regarding mankind's responsibility for 'the death of God' - and the consequences thereof. Nietzsche's views on the frailty of human values in a world bereft of religious faith were echoed by writers including Tolstoy, Marx and Kandinsky - and his chilling message went on to resonate with thinkers throughout the 20th century. When Max Weber called the modern world 'disenchanted', and argued that society must choose to create a new value system based on knowledge or else surrender and embrace a religious faith, he was the latest in a long line of intellectuals attempting to address the problem Nietzsche had laid bare.'

I went through that phase when I was a teenager too! You have to remember Nietzsche was a German and therefore made thouroughly miserable by philosophy. If you are a German philosopher and you aren't in a state of existential angst you aren't philosophising properly

Read some William Blake or Camus!

persephonia · 26/09/2025 13:44

Sorry, I re-read that and it sounded patronising. It wasn't meant to.You do sound a bit depressed though.

brightbrightness · 26/09/2025 13:51

ArabellaSaurus · 18/09/2025 19:49

Humanists have destroyed any credibility I may have previously afforded them.

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This, they can fuck off. Its really clear where the roll back of rights due to ideological non-evidence beliefs has come from in the past ten years, and the Humanists have been there cheering on this roll back and punishing non-adherents.

The fucking cheek of them writing an article like this.

Remove the plank from your own eye before criticising the mote in others, springs to mind.

MarieDeGournay · 26/09/2025 14:03

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 11:39

Interesting, but I think it is used sometimes more in the sense of how our moral systems are loosely arranged?

As in, Christianity is about generosity, charity, love thy neighbour, mercy, etc. This is - as I understand it - a large part of what distinguished it from Judaism, which was 'fear thy god' (see the OT) and subsequently Islam, which was 'obey thy god'. Christianity was 'love thy god'.

I do think that some of our social structures could in theory be replaced by secular ones, but these require building almost from the ground up, without the heritage and heft of history (which yes, is Xtian in the UK) behind them.

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I don't think Christianity was as all that innovative - generosity, charity, love thy neighbour, mercy were not invented by Christianity.

I was going to support that with quotes from Maimonides' Mishneh Torah about charity, mercy, generosity, loving they neighbour, etc, but then it occurred to me that Maimonides was 12th century CE so it could be argued that he borrowed it from Christianity!

However, he illustrates his words with quotations from the Bible about mercy, generosity, loving they neighbour, etc., and draws on the scriptures to state that god's laws were meant to bring 'mercy, peace and loving kindness' to the world*. Those strands must have existed in Judaism before Christianity came into existence, and the concept of 'god' in Judaism seems to me to be richer and deeper than just the touchy one who you had to fear because he smote a lot if you crossed him

*found the source at last! Mishneh Torah Bk3 Ch2 v3 [if they are called verses? I'm not sure what the correct terminology is].

edited to say: no offence meant to the god of the Old Testament!

DeanElderberry · 26/09/2025 14:25

There's a lot of love from the God of the Second Temple period - the Book of Jonah is all about the mismatch between the holy prophet who disapproves of the religious and culturally different foreigners in Nineveh, and ridiculously soppy and indulgent attitude of God who made them and loves them even if they are

a bit wicked.

Lovely book, and very funny - I recommend it.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 26/09/2025 15:01

JamieCannister · 26/09/2025 09:06

persephonia

I don't think "cultural christianity" even really need churches to exist. It doesn't need people to believe in God.

To me it is about the UK as it developed over the last 1000 years (perhaps up until post-modernism and queer theory started deliberately trying to destroy it.)

It is about queuing (if you don't treat others like you would wish to be treated why would you queue?) It is about allowing free speech even when it is offensive (turning the other cheek). It's about democracy (I would argue that the overall ethos of Jesus' alleged key messages is much more compatible with everyone getting a say than a dictator ruling by force). It's about a sense of fair play. It's about being polite.

Now whether cultural christianity could survive indefinitely with no actual christianity is another matter.

And another thing "cultural christianity in the UK is a British Christianity". A stereotypical loud and bright African Church is perfectly compatibly with British cultural christianity (whereas Islamism - extremist islam - is not), but it is not representative of British culture in the way the CoE is.

We have Africans in my local CofE church who do not fit the African church stereotypes, which is perhaps why they are in the CofE.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 26/09/2025 15:09

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 11:39

Interesting, but I think it is used sometimes more in the sense of how our moral systems are loosely arranged?

As in, Christianity is about generosity, charity, love thy neighbour, mercy, etc. This is - as I understand it - a large part of what distinguished it from Judaism, which was 'fear thy god' (see the OT) and subsequently Islam, which was 'obey thy god'. Christianity was 'love thy god'.

I do think that some of our social structures could in theory be replaced by secular ones, but these require building almost from the ground up, without the heritage and heft of history (which yes, is Xtian in the UK) behind them.

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I think it is only fair to Judaism to point out that "love God, and love your neighbour as yourself" is in the Old Testament and was quoted by Jesus as a summary of the law. The difficulty is actually doing it!

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 26/09/2025 15:20

DeanElderberry · 26/09/2025 14:25

There's a lot of love from the God of the Second Temple period - the Book of Jonah is all about the mismatch between the holy prophet who disapproves of the religious and culturally different foreigners in Nineveh, and ridiculously soppy and indulgent attitude of God who made them and loves them even if they are

a bit wicked.

Lovely book, and very funny - I recommend it.

Yes, I see it as a humorous play in four (I think) scenes. Not intended to be taken literally, in my opinion - see also Job and very likely other books.

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 16:52

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 26/09/2025 15:09

I think it is only fair to Judaism to point out that "love God, and love your neighbour as yourself" is in the Old Testament and was quoted by Jesus as a summary of the law. The difficulty is actually doing it!

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I don't have in depth knowledge of any of these religions, it's just how it was explained to me (by a Muslim, fwiw).

Barr77 · 26/09/2025 19:07

persephonia · 26/09/2025 08:46

I don't think you need to live a life like Jesus. In fact, the whole point is he did some things (died for our sins) so we don't have to. But surely it's important (if you are Christian) to (at least try) to live a life according to the things he said people should do. Sure that's sort of impossible because we are all flawed. And there's different interpretations of different things he said which can contradict. But stories like the Good Samaritan, and analogies like the camel and the needle are meant to be lessons for people. And even the anecdotes about e.g. washing the feet of his friends are probably meant to be teaching by example. It's not that everyone needs to be the "son" of a humble carpenter. But there is a reason the son of god was born into a simple family not the family of a king.

So, I do think Trump, Vance et al are probably being hypocritical.

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I don’t disagree with anything in your post. We just have to do our best to live up to the example set.

Christinapple · 26/09/2025 19:30

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 18/09/2025 19:01

I wouldn’t be surprised if same sex marriage was one

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Yes.

Let the Christians get their way and they won't stop at trans people. It will snowball into removing gay marriage rights and normalising homophobia.

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 20:11

Look, of all the world religions, Christianity is one of the most tolerant of homosexuality. After a long, thoughtful, and wide ranging discussion, your post is such absurdly alarmist bollocks you must surely be embarrassed? At least pretend to make an effort.

PurBal · 26/09/2025 20:14

complementarianism does nothing for women’s rights. And complementarian groups are definitely growing.

SionnachRuadh · 26/09/2025 20:19

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 20:11

Look, of all the world religions, Christianity is one of the most tolerant of homosexuality. After a long, thoughtful, and wide ranging discussion, your post is such absurdly alarmist bollocks you must surely be embarrassed? At least pretend to make an effort.

Very low energy. Maybe Chris could ask the Dalai Lama what he thinks of homosexuality.

ArabellaSaurus · 26/09/2025 20:56

Most Buddhist teachings about that type of thing were directed at monks/nuns, renunciants. So not really concerned all that much with 'householders'. I'm not too sure what the Tibetan stance or the Gelug specific stance is.
...

Well, I've had a read and it's still not totally clear.

https://www.lionsroar.com/gays-lesbians-and-the-definition-of-sexual-misconduct/

An elderly monk in a lineage that emphasises celibacy is unlikely to grasp the issue with much understanding, tbh.