Why are trans activists not spitting chips at Stonewall?

[Taytoface]

First off, they hitch their LGB to the T wagon in what could be interpreted as a cynical ploy to prop up their ailing fundraising. Then they give out incorrect legal advice which led trans people to believe they had more rights than the law actually said they had, and then, when it came time to defend their interpretation of the law to the Supreme Court, they were a no show. Didn't apply to submit anything and now clowns like the Fox Killer are leading the charge.

Stonewall are an incredibly effective campaigning organization, but they have really gone awry here. I don't know why anyone on the T side would donate to them.

Sunk cost and true faith?

Stonewall has been such a revered organisation for so long that no one would dare criticise it. So when they realised they had no cause to make them valid anymore and started their money making scheme - under new management - it went quietly under the radar. Women and girls are a far less intimidating target, it's a lot easier to score points against some boring middle aged women.
And if you're vulnerable and naive enough to believe humans can change sex, then you won't realise that the people who are supposed to be your champions are lying to you as well.

The more radical TAs are already sceptical of Stonewall and critical of them.

Stonewall were incredibly effective at pushing gender stuff. However for them it is multifaceted it is about gaining in their institutional power. They love government, big corporations, NHS, academia anywhere they can gain influence. This means they were good at gaining and using power. They have a huge income.

This leads to a conflict when gender stuff is seen as divisive, unpopular and unprofitable. Stonewall now have a big problem. They are part of the SYSTEM they depend and thrive on it. Yet now genderism is falling apart because it is built on unpopular lies.

So Stonewall are kind of trapped. They can't denounce gender stuff, but there is no real way forward. They can stick with it and remain on the margins. However there is no way back for them in government in the UK. Even the SNP has given up.

The next few years will be interesting. The science is moving towards reality. By 2028-30 the gender medical industry in the US will be collapsing it is already starting to go down so the money will start to dry up. More medical scandals will break. For Stonewall profit was a big motivation so them flipping sides is not out of the question. We shall see.

..when it came time to defend their interpretation of the law to the Supreme Court, they were a no show.

I expect that's because Stonewall themselves realise now that their version of the law is not the actual law. Suddenly appearing in 2022 and displayed prominently on Stonewall's website, as a note on all its resources and as a footer on its e-mails (and probably its letters), there is this text.

"Stonewall is proud to provide information, support and guidance on LGBTQ+ inclusion; working towards a world where we're all free to be. This does not constitute legal advice, and is not intended to be a substitute for legal counsel on any subject matter."

It has been a question asked many times on this board, OP. I look forward to the answers.

I suspect that it is because extreme transgender activists know that if they turn on Stonewall, then their dwindling support base will drop off a cliff. They need to regroup but that takes time and investment and there isn’t any other group like Stonewall.

It is Stonewall or bust for them, I think.

I get why they took on the trans mantle ($$$$), and I know why they didn't show up at the supreme court (you can't defend the indefensible), what I don't get is why the trans community are not baying for their blood.

Anyone else so much as misgenders a gender fluid non binary fem masc, and they are up in arms. But being abandoned by Stonewall in their greatest hour of need, and crickets.

I think the answer might be fairly simple.

Trans activists (including, of course, a big chunk of that group of men and women who make the claim, which may or may not be honest, that they are "trans") have a series of interlinked and all-encompassing demands. "We demand to do whatever we want, whenever we want, no matter how much it affects the rights of others or affects public decency, and no matter how much it fails to be based on medical science or logic or reason, no matter what the law or common sense or normal concepts of fairness say. We demand that you refer to us how we want you to, however hard that makes the act of speaking and the wider act of communicating coherently. We demand the right to claim to be gay when we are straight, and the right to abuse actual gay people for not having straight sex."

Such a set of demands can only be pushed through by using a bulldozer, lots of shouting and threats, and lots of fingers in the ears ignoring the sex realist counter-arguments.

It seems to me that Stonewall made precisely the same unreasonable demands as the wider trans movement, and have adopted similar bullying tactics.

It seems to me that trans activists have got the activism they wanted, and that their anger needs to be with the ast majority of the country who find their misogynistic and homophobic cross-sex demands and forced-speech demands utterly outrageous.

For Stonewall profit was a big motivation so them flipping sides is not out of the question. We shall see.

I don’t think it would be that easy.

Not just because the TQ+ would be furious but because what they’ve done to us is unforgivable. I used to be a passionate supporter in the Section 28 days, but I for one would never trust them again.

Oh just wait.

At some point all the 'but Stonewall made me do it' excuses will come out of the woodwork.

Sadly, I am not sure Stonewall will recover from the reputational damage. Court cases have shown that Stonewall law and some significant policy advice was flawed to the point of putting organisations at risk.

The Cass report was similarly damaging to Stonewall. As was many soundbites said by Nancy Kelley.

Then the USAid disappeared.

The impact of those contracts that will be not renewed has already had impact and will be devastating over the coming year or two. I am not sure what Stonewall can do but I suspect to survive they will have to pull something out of the hat very soon.

From conversations with TW irl, I understand that the centre of gravity of transactivism is moving away from Stonewall for various reasons. And they are angry with Stonewall, although it's not very clear to me why (either because I'm hard of understanding or because the trans people I know speak in elliptical gobbledegook).

I think they should be grateful, that Stonewall's campaigns have left TRAs supremely well placed for the next phase. Which seems likely to be a combination of guerrilla lawfare and suborning institutions to ignore the law, or bypass it to the detriment of women, religious minorities, and same-sex attracted people.

It's partly thanks to Stonewall that institutions are riddled from top to bottom with gender woo.

I don’t see what the TQ+ could have to complain about. Stonewall did exactly as they were employed to do: try to push the lie that the emperor is wearing clothes as far as possible. They delivered in spades. The TQ+’s fundamental beef is with material reality.

The only acceptable position in the trans community is that TWAW from the moment they identify as trans. When FWS went to the SC it was already decided that TW were men, from a legal perspective, except for the small number that held a GRC.

It would have been totally unacceptable for stonewall or any other TR organization to weigh in on the case from that perspective.

In the broader view, Stonewall is a trans rights organization, not an LGBT rights organization. This is understood in the organization itself and in the trans community, so, while there is great consternation at the ineffectiveness of Stonewall, generally, no one is under any doubt it's captured by the TR lobby, which, TBH, is a surprisingly mature, realistic and strategic view of the situation, something the community is not famous for.

I don't know ... maybe because trans activists care more about virtue signalling than being effective? They are very much into dividing people into "sides", and which side you are on is primarily determined by what you say. Stonewall have said the right things therefore they are on the right side and that's all that matters. If the trans movement cared about effectiveness, there's a lot of obvious measures they could take that would help them greatly (disassociating from violent loons, dialling down the whole "we need to be in women's prisons" thing, etc etc), but they don't do any of that because they don't care, or are too blinkered to.

(I wonder if part of all this is that being "oppressed" is such a huge part of their identity that they don't actually want to be successful. Being excluded from women's toilets perhaps isn't actually a major imposition for them, but makes them feel good because it gives them something to moan about.)

Also they seem very keen on being part of the whole LGBTQ collective (perhaps partly to bolster the oppression narrative), and Stonewall are such an important symbol of "queerness" that rejecting them wouldn't help with that image at all.

Some of it is probably merely the same reasons that the ire of transactivists is largely directed at women defending their rights than towards people (commonly men) who are genuinely (sometimes violently) transphobic.

Belief is not based upon tangibles, nor on facts. Stonewall told them what they wanted to hear, what fitted with their belief system. Therefore Stonelaw is right and they believe that the SC are wrong because they have misrepresented actual law.

This happens all over the world with religious fundamentalists. It does not matter what their Book says, how co-religionists explain it and even if non-believers act according to their Book: the fundamentalist interpretation cannot ever be wrong.

They are too busy hating on JKR! It is like a cult, with set practices which you can't deviate from if you want to not be excluded.

So there are lots of things you can't criticise if you are in the cult and Stonewall is one of them, along with puberty blockers, men in women's sports etc.

It doesn't make sense but then none of it makes sense.

Stonewall are already pivoting towards fertility services as their new issue. Surrogacy in particular.

Because they’d rather blame JKR, the Government and all the other nasty TERFs.

It’s gone very quiet from Stonewall hasn’t it. I presume those who thought up that brilliant policy of “NO DEBATE” and “TWAW, Get Over It” have abandoned the sinking ship.

Stonewall are already pivoting towards fertility services as their new issue. Surrogacy in particular.

The right for men to have women as service-humans? The right for children to have life-changing things done to them before they can understand? So, nothing's changed.

I don't think it was so surprising that SW went this way, they had already been willing to use any narrative that seemed effective (Love is love? Who thought that was a good idea?) and to accept all the weird the weird oppression hierarchies that these movements seem to thrive on, and they continued to push ideas like, science understands homosexuality and, you need to agree with that (it doesn't really understand it) and increasingly, you need to believe in the policies we say are correct and if you don't you are a homophobe (no room for differernces of opinion on things like same sex marriage.)

I have wondered sometimes if there isn't a kind of fairly short shelf life on big institutions with political aims. Or maybe it's more about size. But once they start to get beyond the immediate material actions they were created to pursue, things seem to go down the toilet.

Stonewall have been very successful in getting public bodies to believe what Stonewall told them. The staff they convinced are still there and still believe. Sandie Peggie has made that clear, and its the same in my own public sector organisation. They have also convinced a good size of the graduate population for a generation. They almost won politically too, and it was the Equality Act which saved us legally in the UK and that led to a political switch, at least in Westminster. Wales is holding out strong and I am unclear how far the Scottish Government has actually changed its position.

They've actually had a lot of wins.

We are still waiting to see how far the success they have already had unravels.

Queers for Palestine hate them though : )

I donate to Stonewall

Yes! Where are Stonewall? I always see written about the SC judgement that "no trans organisations were heard from" yes, because none of them applied to be heard! Why aren't they asking why not? What are the donations to Stonewall et al for if they're going to miss the boat on contributing on behalf of trans people to such a pivotal case as FWS?

I was wondering similar the other day. They don’t seem particularly interested any more.

Do you think as the premier advocacy organization for trans rights that they should have applied to submit evidence to the Supreme Court? Do you know why they didn't?